Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

[luchnia]

None of it. That's my point.

HUM... just wondering here...

Above you said: " Either Jesus paid it all, or He didn't and we're stuck with having to pay for some. Either He took away the sin of the world, or He didn't, and plenty of it is still left un-atoned for."

What part of sin is "left un-atoned for?"

This brings the responsibility in man's court and not God's. There are some out there that believe since Jesus took away the sin of the world, there is nothing they can do one way or the other. I think it is universalist that believe that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do. They tend to forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word. They can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all.

We have to use caution as to how we present take away the sin of the world. What did He do with it and how can people still sin if sin is gone? What did He take away? What did He pay for? I am sure we know the answers, but others may have a different take on what that means.

[branham1965]

amen Pastor Bible.


" If any man teach otherwise,and consent not to wholesome words even the WORDS OF OUR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,and to the doctrine which is according to godliness...1 Timothy 6:3

"If ye abide of me, and my WORDS abide in you,ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you." John 12:48

"Now ye are clean through the WORD which i have spoken unto you." John 15:3

" He that rejecteth me ,and receiveth not my WORDS ,hath one that judgeth him;the WORD that i have spoken ,the same shall judge him in the last day."

Well...here's the thing. I think what the kid is saying on the video is heartfelt, and I think he is simply trying to promote holiness, except those of us who are brought up in salvation in the holiness traditions, would approach it from a different scriptural perspective.
Romans 10:9 (AMP) - "Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Note in the AMP translation how it builds in the interpretation from the original language what it means to BELIEVE. Herein lies the rub. The admonition from Paul is correct here. It is all and everything we need to do to initiate salvation. Is it enough to live holy and proper lives pleasing to God? Not really, unless we sincerely adhere to, trust in, and rely on Jesus.
Belief in Jesus is more than my belief in say, George Washington. The scripture says I must believe in not only who Jesus is, but also what God has done in Him for the benefit of the human race.

The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ.

What I ACTUALLY need to do is simply believe (adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ. I don't find what this kid is teaching to be what Dake taught. I find Dake to be a classic holiness teacher. I'm sure he got that from his years with the Church of God.

In watching the video I was not inspired. I felt more indoctrinated into a more legal and carnal way of trying to receive what has indeed been freely given to the world through the Cross of Christ. Once we are born again, then we can begin to renew our way of thinking and begin the journey (Romans 12) toward the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, known more prominently by the old timers as "second blessing holiness". The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is far more than just speaking in tongues, and while I believe in and appreciate that Pentecostal tradition and biblical truth, I also appreciate my holiness roots as well. Heart purity is the ultimate goal.

My two cents anyway.

Doc

Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?

[Doc]

Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?

I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances.

I had an incident at church just yesterday when a woman complained to me in a bible study that one of the other pastors told his class that he believes that a person who does not fulfill the great commission is not truly saved.

I thought the the statement to be out of line and not true.

[bibleman]

Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?

I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances.

I had an incident at church just yesterday when a woman complained to me in a bible study that one of the other pastors told his class that he believes that a person who does not fulfill the great commission is not truly saved.

I thought the the statement to be out of line and not true.

Thanks Doc!

So in regard to your response: "I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances."

I hear you there! Let's take for example when Jesus talked about forgiveness.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If I hear you right... If we felt we were hurt so badly that we could NOT forgive... then that would be OK to continue to walk in bitterness and unforgiveness toward someone else that Jesus commanded/suggested we forgive.

Therefore we are NOT held accountable to do the command/suggestion concerning forgiveness. And the Lord allows us to violate His commands/suggestions and still go to Heaven anyway.

Have I got it right?

[titus213]

there have always been two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.

[bibleman]

there are two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.

Thanks titus213,

I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

[titus213]

I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Of course the Christian is expected to obey the commands of the law. In fact, due to the new birth only the Christian is actually able to obey them (Romans 8:7-8). Now that we as Christians have this ability, we cannot be content to continue in sin and disobedience. We have an obligation to obey. This is Paul’s point in Rom 6:1-14. But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1).

What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Nope. Grace doesn't change our obligation. We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life.

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

No. But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others. It’s the spirit of presumption that Jesus is warning against, much as He does in the Lord's Prayer. Prayer is a tremendous power, as His disciples have just witnessed. But it can’t be used for the gratification of personal grudges. God’s willingness to forgive us is limited by our willingness to forgive others.

[bibleman]

I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Of course the Christian is expected to obey the commands of the law. In fact, due to the new birth only the Christian is actually able to obey them (Romans 8:7-8). Now that we as Christians have this ability, we cannot be content to continue in sin and disobedience. We have an obligation to obey. This is Paul’s point in Rom 6:1-14. But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1).

What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Nope. Grace doesn't change our obligation. We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life.

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

No. But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others. It’s the spirit of presumption that Jesus is warning against, much as He does in the Lord's Prayer. Prayer is a tremendous power, as His disciples have just witnessed. But it can’t be used for the gratification of personal grudges. God’s willingness to forgive us is limited by our willingness to forgive others.

Thanks titus213

You said: "But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1)."

I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."

You said: "What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15)."

ANd if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.

You said: "We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life."

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.

You said:" But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others."

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person. And if not then what is Jesus going to do with all these unforgiven people when they get to Heaven. Will God ever forgive them through out all eternity.

My friend - seems from your answers... you are involved in the ultra-grace movement big time,

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?

[titus213]

I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
Nope. Those words are not in the earlier manuscripts at 8:1. But they are in v.4 where they identify those for whom the "requirement of the Law" (ie that sin must be punished by death) has been met: those "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

AND if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.
True

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.
That is a classic straw man argument, as I'm sure you know. I didn't say that so you're merely putting words in my mouth. To make the law a matter of salvation for the Christian is classic Galatianism -- a sinner becomes saved by grace, but stays saved by works. Paul fought this error just as hard as he did the error which says "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?"

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person.
Which shows you don't understand me right.

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?
When I warn people about the possibility of falling from grace and losing salvation I usually focus on the fact that the key to staying saved is the same as becoming saved: faith in the atoning blood of Christ.

So the question then is, How can that saving and staying faith die? I point to 3 ways: spiritual suicide (deliberately renouncing Christ, as the people we read about in Hebrews were contemplating); spiritual starvation (where a person doesn't use the means God has provided to deepen his roots in the faith, as in Matthew 13:5-6, 20-21); and spiritual strangulation (by sin being allowed to continue and even grow with no effort to overcome it, as in Matthew 13:7, 22).

So no, I don't teach that because God’s grace forgives all sins it doesn't matter if we keep on sinning (Rom 6:1). As Paul so clearly explains, becoming a Christian involves not just forgiveness but also regeneration, in which we are raised up from a state of spiritual death (Eph 2:1,5) to walk in a new spiritual life where sin does not belong (Rom 6:2-14). And if someone continues to live a life controlled by the sins of the flesh, he will surely go back into that state of spiritual death: "because if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13).

[bibleman]

I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
Nope. Those words are not in the earlier manuscripts at 8:1. But they are in v.4 where they identify those for whom the "requirement of the Law" (ie that sin must be punished by death) has been met: those "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

AND if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.
True

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.
That is a classic straw man argument, as I'm sure you know. I didn't say that so you're merely putting words in my mouth. To make the law a matter of salvation for the Christian is classic Galatianism -- a sinner becomes saved by grace, but stays saved by works. Paul fought this error just as hard as he did the error which says "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?"

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person.
Which shows you don't understand me right.

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?
When I warn people about the possibility of falling from grace and losing salvation I usually focus on the fact that the key to staying saved is the same as becoming saved: faith in the atoning blood of Christ.

So the question then is, How can that saving and staying faith die? I point to 3 ways: spiritual suicide (deliberately renouncing Christ, as the people we read about in Hebrews were contemplating); spiritual starvation (where a person doesn't use the means God has provided to deepen his roots in the faith, as in Matthew 13:5-6, 20-21); and spiritual strangulation (by sin being allowed to continue and even grow with no effort to overcome it, as in Matthew 13:7, 22).

So no, I don't teach that because God’s grace forgives all sins it doesn't matter if we keep on sinning (Rom 6:1). As Paul so clearly explains, becoming a Christian involves not just forgiveness but also regeneration, in which we are raised up from a state of spiritual death (Eph 2:1,5) to walk in a new spiritual life where sin does not belong (Rom 6:2-14). And if someone continues to live a life controlled by the sins of the flesh, he will surely go back into that state of spiritual death: "because if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13).

Got to go to a funeral will give further input later.

But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

According to you if a Christian commits a murder it doesn't matter - they are still saved and on their way to Heaven according to your ultra grace teaching.

Very sad indeed!