Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Sovereignty vs Free Will

[victoryword]

Victoryword
First you seem to love to compare people's ideological ideas about God to schizo's, you have done it in many posts and of course you always say no God isn't schizo. But the point is I don't think the two belong in the same sentence even if it is just as a bad example. To me it shows you that I think from my own exalted opinion that you have little fear of God. Enough said!

You never have done anything and then say "I knew that would happen and I really wish I hadn't done it?" When our children are born do we not know they are going to sin? Does their sin really surprise us? Does it disappoint us? Why should God be any different?

My opinion and reading my exalted viewpoint into Scripture attests to God's foreknowledge in clear and concise words, scripture attests to God's omniscience in clear and concise term. Yet you want to deny it and use actual Biblical evidence that proves me wrong as usual like the one you use here to suggest God was surprised or even worse.

No one is speaking of predestination, or of man not having free will. What we are saying is God is big enough and God enough to allow man to have free will and God is still able to have our unscriptutal understanding of what is total sovereignty and accomplish His will.

Made some corrections for you.

[Justaned]

Victoryword
First you seem to love to compare people's ideological ideas about God to schizo's, you have done it in many posts and of course you always say no God isn't schizo. But the point is I don't think the two belong in the same sentence even if it is just as a bad example. To me it shows you that I think from my own exalted opinion that you have little fear of God. Enough said!

You never have done anything and then say "I knew that would happen and I really wish I hadn't done it?" When our children are born do we not know they are going to sin? Does their sin really surprise us? Does it disappoint us? Why should God be any different?

My opinion and reading my exalted viewpoint into Scripture attests to God's foreknowledge in clear and concise words, scripture attests to God's omniscience in clear and concise term. Yet you want to deny it and use actual Biblical evidence that proves me wrong as usual like the one you use here to suggest God was surprised or even worse.

No one is speaking of predestination, or of man not having free will. What we are saying is God is big enough and God enough to allow man to have free will and God is still able to have our unscriptutal understanding of what is total sovereignty and accomplish His will.

Made some corrections for you.

No now you changing what you said. And trying to put word into my mouth both very distasteful habit to have.

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

[victoryword]

No now I will accuse you of changing what you said even though you didn't. And [trying - removed] to put word into my mouth that I actually meant though I left them out of my post both very distasteful, in my opinion of course, habit to have.

Made some corrections for you

[Justaned]

No now I will accuse you of changing what you said even though you didn't. And [trying - removed] to put word into my mouth that I actually meant though I left them out of my post both very distasteful, in my opinion of course, habit to have.

Made some corrections for you

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

[victoryword]

JustanWood, that was a wonderful quote. May I borrow it?

[bibleman]

No now I will accuse you of changing what you said even though you didn't. And [trying - removed] to put word into my mouth that I actually meant though I left them out of my post both very distasteful, in my opinion of course, habit to have.

Made some corrections for you

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Interesting quote... is that ALSO from some of the communist you quote so often?

[Grandfather]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

I've heard this argument before, so here is the dilemma. If what you say is true then the following passages are false. and equally if the following passages are true what you say is false.

In Isaiah 46:10 God says: “I make know the end from the beginning”

In Psalm 137 David writes: “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely”

In 1 John 3:20 John writes: “God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”

Therefore using your own logic -- God could be accused of telling lies in the above mentioned passages, because - according to your understanding - he doesn't know the end from the beginning, he doesn't know every word on our tongue, he doesn't know all things.

So, the question now becomes which side are you going to believe, and which side are you going to attempt to explain away.

[Grandfather]

Thanks Ironman,

You gave a very powerful verse of Scripture.

Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

For Bible believers it is very simple - just believe the Bible.

Yes, just believe the Bible:

In Isaiah 46:10 God says: “I make known the end from the beginning”

In Psalm 137 David writes: “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely”

In 1 John 3:20 John writes: “God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”

And if you so chose to say in effect: "Those scriptures don't mean....." then you must allow others to use the same argument to Gen 22 and others.

So I agree the Gen 22 says "I know now..." and COULD imply that God did not know beforehand. Will you agree that 1 John 3 says "God knows all things"?

[Justaned]

No now I will accuse you of changing what you said even though you didn't. And [trying - removed] to put word into my mouth that I actually meant though I left them out of my post both very distasteful, in my opinion of course, habit to have.

Made some corrections for you

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Interesting quote... is that ALSO from some of the communist you quote so often?

Perhaps you should think about it.

[Grandfather]

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

You make an interesting point, however if God did not foreknow this, then why:

Was Jesus "the lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to Rev 13

Was Jesus "chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to 1 Peter 1

It would appear that if God knew man was going to need a savior BEFORE the foundation of the world, he would not have regretted making man, at least regret as we understand it.