Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Romans 7:14-25

[Justaned]

.Perhaps someone should look into the meaning of Antinomianism.

Nice stab. But who is pushing that here? Care to explain yourself? I am well aware of this theology and I do not believe it to be a biblical doctrine.

My mistake wrong thread!

[Grandfather]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

[bibleman]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Grandpa,

How about this... since you disagree please provide how a born again saved man by the blood of Jesus can exhibit this kind of life:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

I don't see it myself.

How can a saved man have that kind of sinned filled defeated life run by the devil?

[Grandfather]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Grandpa,

How about this... since you disagree please provide how a born again saved man by the blood of Jesus can exhibit this kind of life:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

I don't see it myself.

How can a saved man have that kind of sinned filled defeated life run by the devil?

Because I don't define defeat / victory the same way you.

I believe my spirit is saved, my soul is being saved, and my body will be saved. Or to use an analogy... If I want to transform my body, to lose some weight, say 30 lbs and to get toned and fit. It would be a struggle and it would not happen overnight. There may even be weeks I gained a pound or two, but there would be more weeks I lost. To say that I was not being changed because I haven't arrived at my goal would be a lie. To say I wasn't being changed because I gained would be a lie.

I believe that learned to walk by the Spirit is very similar. We have grown so accustom to listening to the flesh that we sometimes fail to filter what it says through the voice of the Spirit. But the good news is that I am not condemned because I fall because of what our Savior has done.

Now, I've replied to you, so please respond to the questions I've asked

[bibleman]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Grandpa,

How about this... since you disagree please provide how a born again saved man by the blood of Jesus can exhibit this kind of life:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

I don't see it myself.

How can a saved man have that kind of sinned filled defeated life run by the devil?

Because I don't define defeat / victory the same way you.

I believe my spirit is saved, my soul is being saved, and my body will be saved. Or to use an analogy... If I want to transform my body, to lose some weight, say 30 lbs and to get toned and fit. It would be a struggle and it would not happen overnight. There may even be weeks I gained a pound or two, but there would be more weeks I lost. To say that I was not being changed because I haven't arrived at my goal would be a lie. To say I wasn't being changed because I gained would be a lie.

I believe that learned to walk by the Spirit is very similar. We have grown so accustom to listening to the flesh that we sometimes fail to filter what it says through the voice of the Spirit. But the good news is that I am not condemned because I fall because of what our Savior has done.

Now, I've replied to you, so please respond to the questions I've asked

Hi Grandpa,

Well here is what I believe

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to you Paul is NOT a new creation and is of the devil.

I just don't see that in the Scriptures.

[Grandfather]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Grandpa,

How about this... since you disagree please provide how a born again saved man by the blood of Jesus can exhibit this kind of life:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

I don't see it myself.

How can a saved man have that kind of sinned filled defeated life run by the devil?

Because I don't define defeat / victory the same way you.

I believe my spirit is saved, my soul is being saved, and my body will be saved. Or to use an analogy... If I want to transform my body, to lose some weight, say 30 lbs and to get toned and fit. It would be a struggle and it would not happen overnight. There may even be weeks I gained a pound or two, but there would be more weeks I lost. To say that I was not being changed because I haven't arrived at my goal would be a lie. To say I wasn't being changed because I gained would be a lie.

I believe that learned to walk by the Spirit is very similar. We have grown so accustom to listening to the flesh that we sometimes fail to filter what it says through the voice of the Spirit. But the good news is that I am not condemned because I fall because of what our Savior has done.

Now, I've replied to you, so please respond to the questions I've asked

Hi Grandpa,

Well here is what I believe

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to you Paul is NOT a new creation and is of the devil.

I just don't see that in the Scriptures.

What becomes NEW in 2 Cor 5:17? People have the same wife, the same hair color. People have the same body and live in the same house, drive the same car, go to the same job. So clearly ALL THINGS aren't ALL THINGS. Whatever is of spirit is spirit and whatever if of flesh is flesh. The works of the devil are not manifest in my spirit, my spirit is new, alive unto God, it does not sin. But my spirit is not my soul, or my flesh, apparently you believe that they are one and the same.

But, alas, you still have not refuted my position, but are continuing to defend yours.

[bibleman]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?

You raise an interesting point and if your understanding of "hope in Christ" is only that one is delivered from struggle, then it is a doubly good point. However, since you have also not refuted points I've previously made you are offering only an opinion just as I have. You are entitled to that opinion, but that does not mean it is correct, nor does it mean it is incorrect.

Since you disagree with me and believe this was Paul writing about his "pre-saved" self please explain how:
1 - an UNSAVED Paul hated sin. When he said he was zealous towards the law and persecuting the church
2 - an UNSAVED Paul knew that in him dwelled no good thing?
3 - an UNSAVED Paul thanks God that with his mind he serves the lord but with his flesh he serves God

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Grandpa,

How about this... since you disagree please provide how a born again saved man by the blood of Jesus can exhibit this kind of life:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

I don't see it myself.

How can a saved man have that kind of sinned filled defeated life run by the devil?

Because I don't define defeat / victory the same way you.

I believe my spirit is saved, my soul is being saved, and my body will be saved. Or to use an analogy... If I want to transform my body, to lose some weight, say 30 lbs and to get toned and fit. It would be a struggle and it would not happen overnight. There may even be weeks I gained a pound or two, but there would be more weeks I lost. To say that I was not being changed because I haven't arrived at my goal would be a lie. To say I wasn't being changed because I gained would be a lie.

I believe that learned to walk by the Spirit is very similar. We have grown so accustom to listening to the flesh that we sometimes fail to filter what it says through the voice of the Spirit. But the good news is that I am not condemned because I fall because of what our Savior has done.

Now, I've replied to you, so please respond to the questions I've asked

Hi Grandpa,

Well here is what I believe

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

According to you Paul is NOT a new creation and is of the devil.

I just don't see that in the Scriptures.

What becomes NEW in 2 Cor 5:17? People have the same wife, the same hair color. People have the same body and live in the same house, drive the same car, go to the same job. So clearly ALL THINGS aren't ALL THINGS. Whatever is of spirit is spirit and whatever if of flesh is flesh. The works of the devil are not manifest in my spirit, my spirit is new, alive unto God, it does not sin. But my spirit is not my soul, or my flesh, apparently you believe that they are one and the same.

But, alas, you still have not refuted my position, but are continuing to defend yours.

Hi grandpa,

Read this by Dake and you will understand.

Is the Body Sinful and the Soul and Spirit Holy?

The theory that the body is always sinful and the flesh sins every day, but the soul and spirit are perfectly sinless and holy, is one of the most foolish, ignorant, and unscriptural theories the devil and his agents are seeking to impose upon intelligent Bible–loving people. There can be no Scripture produced that says any such thing. This is purely a doctrine of demons to deceive men and cause their souls to be lost in eternal Hell. The following Scriptures prove that the body must be holy and sinless as much as the soul:

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead [that is, dead to sin as in Rom. 6:2] is freed from sin” (Rom. 6:6-7); “If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [Holy Spirit] is life because of righteousness . . . Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live” (Rom. 8:1-4, 10, 12-13); “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye might prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God” (Rom. 12:1-2); “The body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body . . . Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ . . . Every sin that a man doeth is without the body . . . Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? . . . Therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Cor. 6:13, 15, 19-20); “Know ye not that ye [your bodies] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwell in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Cor. 3:16-17); “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27); “That the life also of Jesus might be manifest in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10); “Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of sins of the flesh . . . having forgiven you all trespasses” (Col. 2:11-13); “that she may be holy both in body and in spirit” (1 Cor. 7:34).
Finis J. Dake, Bible Truths Unmasked, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2003), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 95-96.

[Grandfather]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

[bibleman]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

[macca]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

My experience of salvation (born again) agrees exactly with what you Leon and Dake have stated.
I can not deny the power of God in my life over the power of sin, i would be found a lier if i stated otherwise.
macca