Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ CREFLO no need to confess sin

[bibleman]

I AM NOT.
YOU KNOW THIS IS SO. HE IS TEACHING GOD DOES NOT IMPUTE SIN TO THE BELIEVER!!!!!DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR!!!!!AND SO I CAN COMMIT ALL 17 WORKS OF THE FLESH TONIGHT AND ACCORDING TO THESE FELLOWS IM FINE.WHAT DEVIL DOCTRINE.

REVEREND DAKE WAS RIGHT.SIN IS IMPUTED TO YOU AND ME IF WE COMMIT IT.I KNEW THAT WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL 1976-1979 FROM THE DAKE BIBLE AND THE RED BOOK CADILLAC.
NOW THESE GUYS ARE TEACHING THIS HYPERGRACE AND ITS ACCEPTED.EVEN CODDLED!!!
IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL PAUL SAID.....LET HIM BE ACCURSED.GAL 1.

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

Hi Billy,

I talked to a publisher of Creflo in July and he told me that Creflo was re-writing his older books to include the message of grace.

Now I don't know what that means.

If you will point out a statement in that video that he says something wrong then I will take a look at it.

But I will not judge a man until I hear the evidence.

Above you said: "HE IS TEACHING GOD DOES NOT IMPUTE SIN TO THE BELIEVER!!!!!"

At what point in the video did he say that?

Please give the time number so I can listen to it.

[Watchman2013]

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

NO the Old Testament Civil or Social laws are to be a moral compass to us.

Where do you find that in the NT?

What passage teaches that?

Hi Bibleman,

I'm not Justaned, though I'd be honored to be half as good a man as he is, someday...

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. We, as Christians are not under the Law and the Prophets. However, must one look beyond the teachings of Paul, to see that many aspects of the Law and the Prophets are not laudable? Are there not many elements to the Old Testament, that provide many of the values, morals, ethics, and yes, customs, that still have value, to living a life as free as possible from sin, and the degradation that besets the world today? Not just morals, but health wise, the wisdom that comes from a study of the Old Testament, while keeping that which is good? "Throwing the baby out with the bath water," could mean getting rid of ALL the teachings found from Moses up to the Earthly Ministry of Christ Jesus, if one were so inclined...

What would be lost, if such an action were to be attempted? Our Heritage, as Believers in Christ Jesus, would be lost, and that would be not only a tragedy, but a shame... Tell me that there is not wisdom in the Old Testament. Tell me that there are not things that affect how we interact with God, and our fellow Man... The Precious Holy Bible, in ALL it's aspects, is of immeasurable, inestimable, value... As a code of conduct, as a way to interact with others, be it individuals, or nations, The Holy Bible, in it's entirety, is Wisdom from God...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

[Justaned]

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

NO the Old Testament Civil or Social laws are to be a moral compass to us.

Where do you find that in the NT?

What passage teaches that?

Matthew 7:12 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

[bibleman]

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

NO the Old Testament Civil or Social laws are to be a moral compass to us.

Where do you find that in the NT?

What passage teaches that?

Hi Bibleman,

I'm not Justaned, though I'd be honored to be half as good a man as he is, someday...

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. We, as Christians are not under the Law and the Prophets. However, must one look beyond the teachings of Paul, to see that many aspects of the Law and the Prophets are not laudable? Are there not many elements to the Old Testament, that provide many of the values, morals, ethics, and yes, customs, that still have value, to living a life as free as possible from sin, and the degradation that besets the world today? Not just morals, but health wise, the wisdom that comes from a study of the Old Testament, while keeping that which is good? "Throwing the baby out with the bath water," could mean getting rid of ALL the teachings found from Moses up to the Earthly Ministry of Christ Jesus, if one were so inclined...

What would be lost, if such an action were to be attempted? Our Heritage, as Believers in Christ Jesus, would be lost, and that would be not only a tragedy, but a shame... Tell me that there is not wisdom in the Old Testament. Tell me that there are not things that affect how we interact with God, and our fellow Man... The Precious Holy Bible, in ALL it's aspects, is of immeasurable, inestimable, value... As a code of conduct, as a way to interact with others, be it individuals, or nations, The Holy Bible, in it's entirety, is Wisdom from God...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

Hi Watchman2013,

It is your choice but you are disagreeing with Dake and the Word of God on this.

I. Biblical Proof That the Old Covenant Was Entirely Abolished

1. The whole law of God and Moses, including the Ten Commandments, and all the civil and ceremonial laws based upon the Ten Commandments, were done away with and abolished in Christ on the cross and the New Covenant now takes the place of the old one. This is plainly stated in 2 Cor. 3: “Who hath made us able ministers of the new testament . . . if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (the Ten Commandments); was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance which was to be done away. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that (the Old Covenant) which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that (the Old Covenant) which is done away was glorious, much more that (the New Covenant) which remaineth is glorious . . . not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that (the Old Covenant) which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which is done away in Christ” (2 Cor. 3:6-15; Col. 2:14-17; Eph. 2:15).

Some people may need an interpreter to explain this simple passage, but to the common reader it is clear that the Old Covenant has been “done away” and “abolished” entirely and the New Covenant has taken its place.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 574.

[Justaned]

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

NO the Old Testament Civil or Social laws are to be a moral compass to us.

Where do you find that in the NT?

What passage teaches that?

Hi Bibleman,

I'm not Justaned, though I'd be honored to be half as good a man as he is, someday...

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. We, as Christians are not under the Law and the Prophets. However, must one look beyond the teachings of Paul, to see that many aspects of the Law and the Prophets are not laudable? Are there not many elements to the Old Testament, that provide many of the values, morals, ethics, and yes, customs, that still have value, to living a life as free as possible from sin, and the degradation that besets the world today? Not just morals, but health wise, the wisdom that comes from a study of the Old Testament, while keeping that which is good? "Throwing the baby out with the bath water," could mean getting rid of ALL the teachings found from Moses up to the Earthly Ministry of Christ Jesus, if one were so inclined...

What would be lost, if such an action were to be attempted? Our Heritage, as Believers in Christ Jesus, would be lost, and that would be not only a tragedy, but a shame... Tell me that there is not wisdom in the Old Testament. Tell me that there are not things that affect how we interact with God, and our fellow Man... The Precious Holy Bible, in ALL it's aspects, is of immeasurable, inestimable, value... As a code of conduct, as a way to interact with others, be it individuals, or nations, The Holy Bible, in it's entirety, is Wisdom from God...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

Hi Watchman2013,

It is your choice but you are disagreeing with Dake and the Word of God on this.

I. Biblical Proof That the Old Covenant Was Entirely Abolished

1. The whole law of God and Moses, including the Ten Commandments, and all the civil and ceremonial laws based upon the Ten Commandments, were done away with and abolished in Christ on the cross and the New Covenant now takes the place of the old one. This is plainly stated in 2 Cor. 3: “Who hath made us able ministers of the new testament . . . if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (the Ten Commandments); was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance which was to be done away. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that (the Old Covenant) which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that (the Old Covenant) which is done away was glorious, much more that (the New Covenant) which remaineth is glorious . . . not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that (the Old Covenant) which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which is done away in Christ” (2 Cor. 3:6-15; Col. 2:14-17; Eph. 2:15).

Some people may need an interpreter to explain this simple passage, but to the common reader it is clear that the Old Covenant has been “done away” and “abolished” entirely and the New Covenant has taken its place.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 574.

Ah perhaps Dake forgot the words of Jesus. Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Old Testament was eternal but it could be fulfilled and Jesus and the New Testament was the fulfillment of it. No it is not abolished it was fulfilled, embraced and glorified by Jesus and the New Covenant. As I posted before Matthew 7:12 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

See it all still there just more glorious more radiant and more illuminating made that way by the Jesus and the New Covenant.

[bibleman]

Bibleman
Most of the religious aspect of the law was fulfilled by Jesus. In any case 1Tim4:4,5 tells us we sanctify the food with prayer. Is there one place that lists all the aspects of the Old Testament Law Jesus fulfilled? No. It requires study to find them.

So again you are in agreement with Creflo Dollar.

NO the Old Testament Civil or Social laws are to be a moral compass to us.

Where do you find that in the NT?

What passage teaches that?

Hi Bibleman,

I'm not Justaned, though I'd be honored to be half as good a man as he is, someday...

Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. We, as Christians are not under the Law and the Prophets. However, must one look beyond the teachings of Paul, to see that many aspects of the Law and the Prophets are not laudable? Are there not many elements to the Old Testament, that provide many of the values, morals, ethics, and yes, customs, that still have value, to living a life as free as possible from sin, and the degradation that besets the world today? Not just morals, but health wise, the wisdom that comes from a study of the Old Testament, while keeping that which is good? "Throwing the baby out with the bath water," could mean getting rid of ALL the teachings found from Moses up to the Earthly Ministry of Christ Jesus, if one were so inclined...

What would be lost, if such an action were to be attempted? Our Heritage, as Believers in Christ Jesus, would be lost, and that would be not only a tragedy, but a shame... Tell me that there is not wisdom in the Old Testament. Tell me that there are not things that affect how we interact with God, and our fellow Man... The Precious Holy Bible, in ALL it's aspects, is of immeasurable, inestimable, value... As a code of conduct, as a way to interact with others, be it individuals, or nations, The Holy Bible, in it's entirety, is Wisdom from God...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

Hi Watchman2013,

It is your choice but you are disagreeing with Dake and the Word of God on this.

I. Biblical Proof That the Old Covenant Was Entirely Abolished

1. The whole law of God and Moses, including the Ten Commandments, and all the civil and ceremonial laws based upon the Ten Commandments, were done away with and abolished in Christ on the cross and the New Covenant now takes the place of the old one. This is plainly stated in 2 Cor. 3: “Who hath made us able ministers of the new testament . . . if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (the Ten Commandments); was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance which was to be done away. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that (the Old Covenant) which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that (the Old Covenant) which is done away was glorious, much more that (the New Covenant) which remaineth is glorious . . . not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that (the Old Covenant) which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which is done away in Christ” (2 Cor. 3:6-15; Col. 2:14-17; Eph. 2:15).

Some people may need an interpreter to explain this simple passage, but to the common reader it is clear that the Old Covenant has been “done away” and “abolished” entirely and the New Covenant has taken its place.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 574.

Ah perhaps Dake forgot the words of Jesus. Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Old Testament was eternal but it could be fulfilled and Jesus and the New Testament was the fulfillment of it. No it is not abolished it was fulfilled, embraced and glorified by Jesus and the New Covenant. As I posted before Matthew 7:12 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

See it all still there just more glorious more radiant and more illuminating made that way by the Jesus and the New Covenant.

Wait a minute Justaned....

I thought you agreed with Dake on 99% of everything he says????

2. Christ came to “fulfill” the law before He “abolished” it on the cross (Mt. 5:17-18). The Greek word for “fulfill” is plero, “to satisfy,” “execute,” “finish,” “end,” “make complete,” and “cause to expire.” It is translated “fulfilled” in connection with many prophecies which came to an end when they were fulfilled (Mt. 1:22; 2:15, 17, 23; 4:14; 8:17; 12:17; 13:35; 26:54-56; 27:9, 35). That the law also ceased to be in force when it was “fulfilled” is clear from Mt. 11:13; Lk. 16:16; 24:27, 44; Gal. 3:19-25. The law was only a shadow of things to come and when these realities came the mere type, picture, or shadow of them was no longer needed (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 4:1-11; 8:1-6; 9:1-10; 10:1-18).

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 575.

[Watchman2013]

Hello, Bibleman!

I'm always pleased when others read what I've written... Thank-you.

Did I not say that Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, fulfilled the Law and the Prophets? Yes. Did I say that Believers in Christ should cleave to the Law and the Prophets? No. What Reverend Dake said, was, is, true. No problem.

What I did say, is that many of the manners and customs, though not necessary theologically, do make sense, as to how we conduct ourselves, in private, but also amongst other Believers, as well as being in the world... Those who espouse a return to the Law and the Prophets, the Hebrew Return Movement, are in error, for they desire to draw new converts, into a form of bondage to the Law and the Prophets, making the Sacrifice of Christ Jesus to be of no effect...

I rejoice in The New, and Perfect, Everlasting Covenant with Christ Jesus, to The Glory of God the Father... God's "attention to detail," as we called it in the military, is nothing less than staggeringly Brilliant, Awesome, Perfect, Amazing, and so much more, beyond the ken of Humanity, that one can only be reverently dumbstruck, at His Deeds...

When Justaned said that the old ways, ostensibly from the Old Testament, i.e. the Law and the Prophets, were to be as a compass, he was not wrong. He did not mean that we were to continue under the bondage of the Law and the Prophets, but that we are to keep that which is good, and not in conflict with the New, and Everlasting Covenant, of Christ Jesus...

I have many things that are "old," but just because they are "old," does not mean that they are not serviceable... On the contrary, there is comfort in using some things that are "familiar," like how I like to still work a slide rule, versus relying upon an electronic calculator. Pride? I guess, but if the power ever goes off, I'm not stymied by not having the ability to work various formulas, and do necessary calculations. Though I have laser rangefinders, good out to 1,500 meters, I still can do the essential work, to maintain steel on target, without electronics, to at least 1,000 meters, and perhaps, beyond...

How I interact with others, connotes respect, if not of the person, then at least, the position of the person, as regards their perceived authority. How I do so, determines the lubricity of the situation, in how one's intercourse with others may evolve. Is not respect, as found in the teachings and lessons learned within the Old Testament, still applicable to today? So too, are the manifold responses, in the decision tree of one's viability and lines of action, should things go "sideways," resulting in hostile action, as in combat... In "my" world, where I go, what I do, what I say, are all dependent upon God. He may have me go where death is a distinct possibility. I have sworn to God, to protect the innocent, and those that cannot protect themselves. Being ex-military, and having done protective work, I've long been cognizant of "Thou shalt not kill," as being an incorrect translation. It should read, "Thou shalt not commit murder." Big difference... If you don't know the difference, after having searched The Scriptures, we have a communications gap that may be insurmountable...

I work with absolutes. The preeminent "absolute," is God's Holy Word. Period. I work in potentialities, where one's life, or that of another, may be at risk. I'm retired now, but still remain active. I give counsel and advice where wanted and needed. To me, The Holy Bible is more efficient, than the best rifle, ammo, or scope I may have at any time. It IS greater than the weapons of man, for this reason:

Ephesians 6:9-20 (AMP)
9 You masters, act on the same [principle] toward them and give up threatening and using violent and abusive words, knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him.
10 In conclusion, be strong in the Lord [be empowered through your union with Him]; draw your strength from Him [that strength which His boundless might provides].
11 Put on God's whole armor [the armor of a heavy-armed soldier which God supplies], that you may be able successfully to stand up against [all] the strategies and the deceits of the devil.
12 For we are not wrestling with flesh and blood [contending only with physical opponents], but against the despotisms, against the powers, against [the master spirits who are] the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spirit forces of wickedness in the heavenly (supernatural) sphere.
13 Therefore put on God's complete armor, that you may be able to resist and stand your ground on the evil day [of danger], and, having done all [the crisis demands], to stand [firmly in your place].
14 Stand therefore [hold your ground], having tightened the belt of truth around your loins and having put on the breastplate of integrity and of moral rectitude and right standing with God,
15 And having shod your feet in preparation [to face the enemy with the firm-footed stability, the promptness, and the readiness produced by the good news] of the Gospel of peace.
16 Lift up over all the [covering] shield of saving faith, upon which you can quench all the flaming missiles of the wicked [one].
17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword that the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.
18 Pray at all times (on every occasion, in every season) in the Spirit, with all [manner of] prayer and entreaty. To that end keep alert and watch with strong purpose and perseverance, interceding in behalf of all the saints (God's consecrated people).
19 And [pray] also for me, that [freedom of] utterance may be given me, that I may open my mouth to proclaim boldly the mystery of the good news (the Gospel),
20 For which I am an ambassador in a coupling chain [in prison. Pray] that I may declare it boldly and courageously, as I ought to do.

The "prison" I am in, is that of the nation of which I am an earthly citizen, where God is not wanted in many places, and fear stalks other Christians... Therefore, I stand ready to defend the innocent, the helpless, and the hopeless...

I have friends that are Native American. One of their favorite sayings is, "Yatahay!" In English, "It's a great day to die!" For the Believer, we say, "To be absent from the body, is to be present with The Lord!" God is the one that gives strength, purpose, ability, and peace, to do His Will...

Fear of death, no. Fear of God, and failing Him? You betcha! All I want to do, is please Him, and rest beneath His mighty wings...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

[Justaned]

Wait a minute Justaned....

I thought you agreed with Dake on 99% of everything he says????

2. Christ came to “fulfill” the law before He “abolished” it on the cross (Mt. 5:17-18). The Greek word for “fulfill” is plero, “to satisfy,” “execute,” “finish,” “end,” “make complete,” and “cause to expire.” It is translated “fulfilled” in connection with many prophecies which came to an end when they were fulfilled (Mt. 1:22; 2:15, 17, 23; 4:14; 8:17; 12:17; 13:35; 26:54-56; 27:9, 35). That the law also ceased to be in force when it was “fulfilled” is clear from Mt. 11:13; Lk. 16:16; 24:27, 44; Gal. 3:19-25. The law was only a shadow of things to come and when these realities came the mere type, picture, or shadow of them was no longer needed (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 4:1-11; 8:1-6; 9:1-10; 10:1-18).

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 575.

I do agree with 99% I just don't agree with his choice of the word abolish used here. As I said before the Law lives in the New Covenant as being fulfilled by the New Covenant. I don't see an end as in abolish but a new beginning as done better as the Book of Hebrews testifies. The point is while we are no longer under the penalty of the Law to keep Matt 7:12 need the moral compass that is provided by the Law.

[Justaned]

Bibleman
Let us not take this thread into a ditch as you try to trip me up let us get back the meat of the thread.
Billy is saying Creflo Dollar is teaching Hypergrace. Do you agree with the doctrine of Hypergrace?

If not then why this wild chase into never never land at the expense of this thread?

Let us talk about Hypergrace and the error that are birthed by it.

[bibleman]

Bibleman
Let us not take this thread into a ditch as you try to trip me up let us get back the meat of the thread.
Billy is saying Creflo Dollar is teaching Hypergrace. Do you agree with the doctrine of Hypergrace?

If not then why this wild chase into never never land at the expense of this thread?

Let us talk about Hypergrace and the error that are birthed by it.

HI Ed,

The problem is, it has NOT been established that Creflo teaches hyper grace.

He may or he may not....

Do you have a citation or a place in the video that would confirm that Creflo teaches hyper grace?