Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Some questions for all those that say God isn't in control

[Justaned]

I highly recommedn a excelent book by Craig Hill titled, "If God is in Control then Why...?"


Also, Schizophrenic God? Finding Reality in Conflict, Confusion and Contradiction by Steve C. Shank.


These books debunk the "God is in control" myth and promote the message of faith, divine healing and miraculous intervention.

Okay then answer my questions.

If you really believe God isn't in control why do you pray for God to change a situation?

If God isn't control how did the journey of Joseph turn out as it did, with Joseph in the exact right place as the exact right time to save the Children of Israel from death?

If God isn't in control how did the fire that consumed Korath occur when he opposed Moses?

If a car accident occurs and people are killed we attribute it to Satan but if the people live we say God saved them?

I answered all of those. Did you miss my post? Did God somehow sovereignly cause you to miss my post or will you take responsibility for this particular oversight? If you take responsibility for missing my post in which I already answered your question then that means that God is not in control. If God caused you to miss my post then that means that our imperfections are God's doing and not ours and you and I should not have to repent for God making us make mistakes.

You spoke to those points you however in most cases you assigned the problem to me instead of adddressing the questions.

If you believe God is powerless, has no control as was stated in the video cited by Bibleman please tell me why you would pray to God to change something. Doesn't the fact that God can change things prove without a doubt that he is in control. That does no mean God is all controlling or that we make bad decisions, or even that Satan can try to kill us. It simply says God can choose to change the outcome.

[victoryword]

If God is no more than a bemused spectator of things that transpire on earth why do you pray to God for God to change things?

See my answer in the other thread concerning this funny question. In short, if God only intervenes through my prayers then He is not in control. If God is controlling everything then it is a waste of time to pray.

Why does my question imply that? Can't God allowed Joseph's and Potiphar's wife to do those things that their own will but knowing that they would do those things set in place things that would end with Joseph being in the right place at the right time according to God's will?

Now you are asking me, an OPEN THEIST, a question on exhaustive foreknowledge. My question to you is, if God is Holy and all-powerful could He not have gotten Joseph promoted to the position He later received WITHOUT people sinning? Would He have to "use" sin (be it having known via foreknowledge or making the sin happen)? ON the other hand, if Satan knows the plan of God to promote Joseph don't you think that he would try to stop it? Yet, God being resourceful simply intervened and made His plans for Joseph happen IN SPITE OF (not because of) the attempts to thwart His plan?

See, God looks so much better and so less evil when thought out this way.

Doesn't this quote of Stephen sum up what I said? And didn't God have to be in control to make it come to pass?

No it does not sum up a thing you said Ed. Your implications have always been in light of a Calvinistic view of sovereign control which Stephen absolutely refutes.

Again you answer by not answering. You instead try to insult me by calling me a Calvinist which I'm not. So you are saying healing and salvation are two different things. Both occur as salvation but only if the person accepts both. However that is stated no where in scripture.

You are a Calvinist Ed. Like the alcoholic, you simply won't admit it. I answerd your question. You may not like the answer, but it was an answer.

In effect your answer is when we ask God into our lives we only get pieces unless we all for all. Does that even remotely sound logical to you?

That may be your interpretation, but that's not what I said and I won't waste time re-answerring what was a plain and clear answer that you don't like because it won't fit into your calvinistic paradigm (yes, I know, you are NOT a Calvinist, right?)

Okay how does God intercede unless God is able to intercede? If God can override Satan then isn't God that is in control and not Satan?
Please explain how this works?

I actually said, "God has often had someone else (friend, family member, etc.) pray and intercede and the person escapes the accident." God has delegated authority on earth to man and does not usually intervene to override Satan until invited to do so (Gen. 1:26-28).

I have no idea I'm not God not do I pretend to talk for God as you do. My guess the person that died in the accident did have a choice to accept God or not. What their choice was I don't know nor do you.

Oh ho ho ho, now wait a minute!! All of a sudden you say, "I'm not God not do I pretend to talk for God as you do." Wow, you have no verbal relationship with God but you feel that it is your divine call to straighten out us poor ignorant Word-Faith people about God's nature? Oh, now I have read it all Ed.

Any further comment on this may be deemed as unloving so I will exercise restraint and refrain.

Actually you didn't. You gave answers that tried to assign the problem of answering them to me and my questions.

Years of debating Calvinist (I know, you are not a Calvinist, right?) has let me know that I can never answer their questions satisfactorily. Ah well, at least I tried.

Again if you don't think God can change things which means he is in control than why pray to God for Him to change something?

Uh, yeah. OKay Ed. I think I have answered this STRAWMAN a couple of times. Nevertheless, you since the questions that I have already answered keep being repeated then I believe the discussion between you and I is over. For any further questions you need answered, just refer to my posts that are already written.

[Justaned]

[quote="victoryword]Now you are asking me, an OPEN THEIST, a question on exhaustive foreknowledge. My question to you is, if God is Holy and all-powerful could He not have gotten Joseph promoted to the position He later received WITHOUT people sinning? Would He have to "use" sin (be it having known via foreknowledge or making the sin happen)? ON the other hand, if Satan knows the plan of God to promote Joseph don't you think that he would try to stop it? Yet, God being resourceful simply intervened and made His plans for Joseph happen IN SPITE OF (not because of) the attempts to thwart His plan?

See, God looks so much better and so less evil when thought out this way.[/quote]

Who even suggestted that God had to use sin to get Joseph promoted?

But that point aside then you do agree that God did intervened and made his plans happen? Isn't that being in control?

Doesn't this quote of Stephen sum up what I said? And didn't God have to be in control to make it come to pass?

No it does not sum up a thing you said Ed. Your implications have always been in light of a Calvinistic view of sovereign control which Stephen absolutely refutes.

What implications? I haven't implied anything, I asked straight forward questions.

Again you answer by not answering. You instead try to insult me by calling me a Calvinist which I'm not. So you are saying healing and salvation are two different things. Both occur as salvation but only if the person accepts both. However that is stated no where in scripture.

You are a Calvinist Ed. Like the alcoholic, you simply won't admit it. I answerd your question. You may not like the answer, but it was an answer.

That may be your interpretation, but that's not what I said and I won't waste time re-answerring what was a plain and clear answer that you don't like because it won't fit into your calvinistic paradigm (yes, I know, you are NOT a Calvinist, right?)

There is nothing in my theology that lines up with Calvinism however you keep using Calvinism as a excuse for you lack of answering a question directly as it was stated directly.

Okay how does God intercede unless God is able to intercede? If God can override Satan then isn't God that is in control and not Satan?
Please explain how this works?

I actually said, "God has often had someone else (friend, family member, etc.) pray and intercede and the person escapes the accident." God has delegated authority on earth to man and does not usually intervene to override Satan until invited to do so (Gen. 1:26-28).

Then you agree that God does have the power to intercede? Is not that power overriding all other power? If so then who is in control?

I have no idea I'm not God not do I pretend to talk for God as you do. My guess the person that died in the accident did have a choice to accept God or not. What their choice was I don't know nor do you.

Oh ho ho ho, now wait a minute!! All of a sudden you say, "I'm not God not do I pretend to talk for God as you do." Wow, you have no verbal relationship with God but you feel that it is your divine call to straighten out us poor ignorant Word-Faith people about God's nature? Oh, now I have read it all Ed.

If that is how you read this answer then that is how you read this answer. What can I say?

Any further comment on this may be deemed as unloving so I will exercise restraint and refrain.

Actually you didn't. You gave answers that tried to assign the problem of answering them to me and my questions.

Years of debating Calvinist (I know, you are not a Calvinist, right?) has let me know that I can never answer their questions satisfactorily. Ah well, at least I tried.

Again if you don't think God can change things which means he is in control than why pray to God for Him to change something?

Uh, yeah. OKay Ed. I think I have answered this STRAWMAN a couple of times. Nevertheless, you since the questions that I have already answered keep being repeated then I believe the discussion between you and I is over. For any further questions you need answered, just refer to my posts that are already written.

Well we are back to I'm a Calvinist and you can't answer Calvinist. Okay!

I think I saw your answer you said God can change things, so I assume you really do believe God is in control you just don't want to say so because that will mess with the rest of your theology.


Ps I do agree for you to respond any more would be pointless because you refuse to discuss the issue and try to deflect it by calling me a Calvinist.

[Justaned]

Again I ask the basic questions nothing implied.

If God is as some suggest to be little more than a bemused spectator of things that transpire on earth why pray to God for God to change things?

Joseph's brother wanted to kill him they sold him into slavery and he experience many things. Yet when the time came he was in the right place at exactly the right time. Was this coincidence? Or was it God?

Why isn't it being double minded to believe man or Satan is in control but still pray to God for God to change things?


Please give thoughtful intelligent answers for your belief that God isn't in control in these situations.

[frad70]

Justaned, I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you turn it into a couple of closed questions?

[Justaned]

Justaned, I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you turn it into a couple of closed questions?

Is God capable of effecting the things we pray about?

If so can God override something we did? Can God override something Satan did?

If not then does it make sense to pray?


Now let us take it a step future.

If God can change things that we do or that Satan does, doesn't that suggest that God has ultimate power? That God is in control?

Not that God is all controlling deciding for us which cereal we eat each morning but the God has ultimate veto power.

[the_truth]

Again I ask the basic questions nothing implied.

If God is as some suggest to be little more than a bemused spectator of things that transpire on earth why pray to God for God to change things?

Joseph's brother wanted to kill him they sold him into slavery and he experience many things. Yet when the time came he was in the right place at exactly the right time. Was this coincidence? Or was it God?

Why isn't it being double minded to believe man or Satan is in control but still pray to God for God to change things?


Please give thoughtful intelligent answers for your belief that God isn't in control in these situations.

The Father is in control of All things. But He does not negate man's free will. God did not want Joseph to be enslaved, but it did not negate God's will and Joseph's faithfulness. I will use Christ. God knew His Son would be slain. He foresaw before the foundations of the world. This does not mean Jesus was a puppet. God laid down the foundation for The Christ. But Jesus had to choose that path and whomever the man that chose that path, God gave Him all tools necessary to accomplish His will.

So I'm in agreement with you, there is no way God is not in control of all things for the Scripture say that He is. Man's free will cannot negate nor stop God's will from being accomplished. The Prophets were murdered. God did not want that. He knew it was going to happen. But HIS Will was STILL accomplished because HE is control.

[Ironman]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do. Things which may have an influence on GOd's plan. So, God will change His plan to compensate for those who He chooses to help carry out His plan, and God replaces them with others who will do His will!

God is in control and God is not the author of sickness, death, sin and disease. If I were to kill inocent people, children, rob, create distructions, God is not in control of the discisions I personally of my own free will carry out! I agree with macca!

[Justaned]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do. Things which may have an influence on GOd's plan. So, God will change His plan to compensate for those who He chooses to help carry out His plan, and God replaces them with others who will do His will!

God is in control and God is not the author of sickness, death, sin and disease. If I were to kill inocent people, children, rob, create distructions, God is not in control of the discisions I personally of my own free will carry out! I agree with macca!

Have you watched the video that Bibleman provided a link for, with Copeland and another man? In it they say God isn't in control. What do you think about that? http://www.kcm.org/kcmmedia/nojs/webcast/307145

[the_truth]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do.

It is a contradiction to say GOD knows HIS plan from beginning to end, but YET not know what free moral agents will do. In order for HIM to plan HE must know what free moral agents will do. HE knew that free moral agents will kill HIS Son, therefore HE planned for that from the beginning. HE knew that free moral agents would kill HIS prophets, therefore HE planned for that from the beginning. HE knew that men would commit all manner of sin, murder, cheat, and steal and HE planned for that. HE knew babies would be murdered and HE planned for that. Does this make GOD guilty and not in control because HE knew things and allowed man to choose. NO! and emphatically NO! HIS WORD condemns SINNER who chooses to do as he pleases. HIS WORD justifies the believer who chooses to OBEY. Could GOD stop killings by just speaking the WORD? YES! But it requires MAN to obey. Could GOD stop all the maladies in the world? YES. But it requires MAN to obey. Man gave up HIS right and rulership to the Adversary, therefore THE WHOLE Earth groans because of it.

Paul and Jeremiah are examples of Prophets whom GOD chose from birth. HE intervened in their lives and chose them for HIMSELF. HE said of Jeremiah in 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I KNEW YOU you. NOW this proves 100% that GOD KNEW and set apart Jeremiah BEFORE he spoke one word, before he believed one thought, before he did one thing whether good or bad. Then HE said " And before you were born I consecrated you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations".

This proves that GOD chose and called Jeremiah. It was HIS will to call Jeremiah before HE was born to make him a prophet. He already called HIM. Now, Jeremiah is/was a free-moral agent. Could he have rejected GOD's calling? No! Though he had a choice to do so. Jeremiah doubted. But was Jeremiah's doubt greater in power that GOD's Word and Spirit as it related to his calling. Jesus had a calling and choice also. Jeremiah's calling, Jesus' calling STILL required obedience.

So GOD is definitely in control. HE knows HIS plan and HE knows what free moral agents can and won't do. But these free moral agents can't thwart HIS will or control nor HIS Spirit. Jonah thought he could get away for GOD's will and plan. Jonah chose by free-will to ignore the will of GOD, but that didn't surprise GOD and didn't catch HIM by surprise. For GOD already KNEW that some men would run from their calling. So what did GOD do? HE used Jonah's own actions to bring him back to the remembrance of HIS word. Was my Father surprised? NO. Was my Father shocked? NO. Was my Father caught of guard? NO. For HE knows ALL things. But in spite of Jonah's actions, GOD's WILL and PLAN which is executed by HIS word was fulfilled.