Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, when Paul wrote to the Romans he addressed the "Saints", Ro.1:7, and told them to "renew their minds", 12:2. We are a tri-parte person: spirit, soul and body. When we are born again only our spirit is born again; our body and soul do not change, are not renewed.

Then 2 Cor 5:17 is wrong about "old things are passed away, ALL things are made new".

This process is not the reverse that you profess. Did you know "wisdom is the principal thing" or who the "manchild" and "great multitude" are as soon as you were born again? Did you receive your glorified body? This is the flaw/error of your thinking. AFTER we are born again we start the process of renewing our mind as Paul was teaching to the saints in Rome. Again, only your spirit was born again. You are a spirit, you have a soul and you live in a body. You are presently still renewing your mind as you study the scriptures with the help of the holy scriptures and as you renew your mind you get a better understanding of what sin is and how holy God is. Without this knowledge it is impossible not to sin and you receive this knowledge AFTER you are born again. This is only common sense. You are the only person in recorded history that I have ever heard of living a sinless life immediately after being born again. Luther, Calvin, Dake, Billy Graham, Moody, etc, etc, never made such a claim. Even to make such a claim is an act of pride, IMHO.

All you've done is dig your own grave.
When does your "learning" enable you to be "renewed" enough to quit committing sin?
A year, or five, or fifty?
Ever met someone who finally "made it" to a level of knowledge that could prevent sinning?
You are on the track of the Pharisees...gotta keep learning to reach some unobtainable goal.
Knowledge doesn't equal purity.
We are "made again" pure.
We grow in grace and knowledge from a base-line of purity.
New creatures with divine natures don't need to know who the "great multitude" is in order to say "no" to temptation..

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, this one scripture destroys your argument that a true Christian can't sin or depart from the faith:

Paul instructs Timothy, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons", 1Tim.4:1.

Those without faith were never reborn.
It may have seemed they were reborn, for a while, but the seed in a man always manifests itself.
In this case, the devil's seed.
If the seed of God had been in them, it would have precluded "departing".

[luchnia]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Interesting angle. If you use the word "allows" or "enables" then it boils back to your choice and not God's. Because allowing you grants you the right to chose what path you desire to take that is allowed you. Much like coming to a fork in the road which "allows" you two paths and you can choose which way you desire to go. I think your understanding would state that either path is safe because you cannot choose a bad path no matter the temptation.

If it is your choice and not God's seed choosing for you then God's seed cannot keep you from sinning, that is if you chose to follow temptation to the point of sin (not that you would choose to, just that you could if you gave in to temptation). I realize that with your belief you don't agree that you could choose sin in the first place.

Something would have to give with this logic based on what we find in scripture, either God's seed in you forces (keeps might work here as well - basically the same idea of something else forcing your decisions to be the correct ones) you from choosing to sin and you lose choice power against temptation because you cannot sin with God's seed, or within your choice power you don't choose sin which is your ability to make the choice based on being tempted.

I believe scripture solves this dichotomy of these two paths because of the choice God gives man when faced with the temptation to sin whether he decides to choose sin or to endure and stand with God. It is my opinion that this choice, desire, or whatever you call it, ultimately shows a heart willing to love God and not one forced to love God.

[bibleman]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Saw this copied above and it begs the question.

HOW can you be tempted if there is no possibility of you falling away from the Lord?

[luchnia]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Saw this copied above and it begs the question.

HOW can you be tempted if there is no possibility of you falling away from the Lord?

My guess would be that he can be tempted, but he cannot make a choice to sin which as you already know presents a problem. It would also beg another question, why would one be tempted as that would be fruitless to allow temptation? In other words, nothing can come out of temptation.

[bibleman]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Saw this copied above and it begs the question.

HOW can you be tempted if there is no possibility of you falling away from the Lord?

My guess would be that he can be tempted, but he cannot make a choice to sin which as you already know presents a problem. It would also beg another question, why would one be tempted as that would be fruitless to allow temptation? In other words, nothing can come out of temptation.

Very true - If you cannot fall then there is no point to the temptation.

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, this one scripture destroys your argument that a true Christian can't sin or depart from the faith:

Paul instructs Timothy, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons", 1Tim.4:1.

Those without faith were never reborn.
It may have seemed they were reborn, for a while, but the seed in a man always manifests itself.
In this case, the devil's seed.
If the seed of God had been in them, it would have precluded "departing".

Hilltop, You better read that one scripture again. You can't depart from something you never had. Game. set, match.

You CAN depart from being perceived as holy.

[Hill Top]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Saw this copied above and it begs the question.
HOW can you be tempted if there is no possibility of you falling away from the Lord?

I think that is the same 'wonder' lucnia has.
When I am being tempted, I look at it this way...
I'm not being tempted to, say, get drunk or high, I am being tempted to show that I don't believe God about my rebirth.
If I give up my faith that God is true, I will get drunk or high.

Makes me think about the devil in the garden of Eden.
Was he tempting Eve to eat an apple, or was he tempting her to disbelieve God?

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, this one scripture destroys your argument that a true Christian can't sin or depart from the faith:

Paul instructs Timothy, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons", 1Tim.4:1.

Those without faith were never reborn.
It may have seemed they were reborn, for a while, but the seed in a man always manifests itself.
In this case, the devil's seed.
If the seed of God had been in them, it would have precluded "departing".

Hilltop, You better read that one scripture again. You can't depart from something you never had. Game. set, match.

You CAN depart from being perceived as holy.

Better read it again, HT. Nothing is said about "perceived faith". Paul wrote some would depart from "THE" faith. In fact, "perceived faith" is a concept never discussed in the scriptures. It's only a Hilltopian doctrine. Game, set, match. What's next, selling indulgences?

Doesn't "departing from the faith" show the faith wasn't real?
Or at least not real enough to keep you from departing?

[Hill Top]

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

Interesting angle. If you use the word "allows" or "enables" then it boils back to your choice and not God's.

God doesn't force men to love Him.
It is our choice.

Because allowing you grants you the right to chose what path you desire to take that is allowed you. Much like coming to a fork in the road which "allows" you two paths and you can choose which way you desire to go.

That is a great analogy!

I think your understanding would state that either path is safe because you cannot choose a bad path no matter the temptation.

Hardly.
Each option has great big signs saying "Go left to satisfy fleshly desires", or, "Go right to satisfy Spiritual desires".

If it is your choice and not God's seed choosing for you then God's seed cannot keep you from sinning,

Do apple trees have the choice to bring forth corn? Even if something tempts them to bear corn?
If I WANT TO continue to be presumed as "born again", I will do as God desires, and not as my old memories desire.
The seed of God within me allows me to make the choices that sinners cannot make.

I realize that with your belief you don't agree that you could choose sin in the first place.

Sin is always an option; but not one I am open to because I am born of God.

Something would have to give with this logic based on what we find in scripture, either God's seed in you forces (keeps might work here as well - basically the same idea of something else forcing your decisions to be the correct ones) you from choosing to sin and you lose choice power against temptation because you cannot sin with God's seed, or within your choice power you don't choose sin which is your ability to make the choice based on being tempted.

I guess your base-line question is...Am I kept free from sin because I am born of God? or, Am I kept free from sin because I choose to be?
Right?
The answer to both questions is..."Yes".
I am kept free from sin because I choose to be born of God.

I believe scripture solves this dichotomy of these two paths because of the choice God gives man when faced with the temptation to sin whether he decides to choose sin or to endure and stand with God.
It is my opinion that this choice, desire, or whatever you call it, ultimately shows a heart willing to love God and not one forced to love God.

It shows a born again heart.
A new heart gendered by a God of redemption, sanctity, love, faith, morality, peace, charity, patience, hope, honesty, and truth.
Those are our new "genes".