Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

Rocky and others think about it how did Jesus know Peter was going to deny him before the cock crowed thrice?
How did the prophets know Judas would betray Jesus with 30 pieces of silver?
How did Jesus know Judas would betray him?
How did the prophets know they would pull Jesus beard?

Good guesses? God manipulated man to make it happen? How did God know all these things?
I have a list of 44 prophecies Jesus fulfilled to the letter how did that happen?

There is only two ways. God made it happen or God saw and reported it.

If God made it happen then man really doesn't have free will or God saw it and if God could see this why do you insist God doesn't see other things? It doesn't make sense.

[Ironman]

Again I am simply doing what Dake said to do. I interpret things literally when at all possible but when a literal interpretation produces conflicts with the REST (WHOLE) of scripture I then look for what could be going on. I see God using a figure of speech to interact with Abraham to show Abraham His demand for holiness and His mercy.
Nothing mysterious. "

*********************************************************************************************

If so you must agree with what Dake said here?

"God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12)."

.

I added, When did God say He knew after Abraham raised his knife to kill his son and was stopped? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!"

[Rocky]

Again I am simply doing what Dake said to do. I interpret things literally when at all possible but when a literal interpretation produces conflicts with the REST (WHOLE) of scripture I then look for what could be going on. I see God using a figure of speech to interact with Abraham to show Abraham His demand for holiness and His mercy.
Nothing mysterious. "

*********************************************************************************************

If so you must agree with what Dake said here?

"God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12)."

.

I added, When did God say He knew after Abraham raised his knife to kill his son and was stopped? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!"

Great Reply

[Justaned]

Again I am simply doing what Dake said to do. I interpret things literally when at all possible but when a literal interpretation produces conflicts with the REST (WHOLE) of scripture I then look for what could be going on. I see God using a figure of speech to interact with Abraham to show Abraham His demand for holiness and His mercy.
Nothing mysterious. "

*********************************************************************************************

If so you must agree with what Dake said here?

"God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12)."

.

I added, When did God say He knew after Abraham raised his knife to kill his son and was stopped? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!"

Ironmen
Actually I do agree to a point what Dake said in the first paragraph. I don't know whether God limits himself or exercises control but I will go with most of what Dake said in the first paragraph.

However in the second paragraph Dake said God must limit himself in the dealing with man to avoid violating man's free will. I ask why? Why is knowing something by God any kind of impedance to man's free will?
Explain why God knowing what decision you will make violates your free will and right to make that decision. If God does nothing to influence your decision I can see no violation or impedance to man's free will. Tell me why you see it as a violation or why Dake did for that matter.

[Justaned]

Okay here is the challenge

I say God is limitless. Everyone else wants God limited. Why?

Why must God limit Himself as far as being all Knowing to protect man's right to free will?

Why does God knowing the decision man will make effect man's right and ability to make that choice?

Some will say if God knew man would choose not to accept Christ then God knew man would be lost therefore God created a man to be damned. No God created a man gave him free choice, the man made the choice, God just knew what it was. He had to let the man make that choice himself. If God only created men that choose to be saved then there would be no choice. But there is a choice. Man makes it but God already knows what choice they will make. I don't see a problem but you all apparently do, so explain it to me.

[bibleman]

Again Genesis 18 was offered by someone as proof that God was limited. That was not my position it was the position of others and Genesis 18 was offered as evidence. I said if evidence is tainted because it causes conflict with the rest of scripture. That has been my position all along. God is not limited and Genesis in no way proves evidence of that being a fact.

HI Ed,

So in other words.... you are saying....

NO MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MAN-MADE OPINION!

[victoryword]

Again Genesis 18 was offered by someone as proof that God was limited. That was not my position it was the position of others and Genesis 18 was offered as evidence. I said if evidence is tainted because it causes conflict with the rest of scripture. That has been my position all along. God is not limited and Genesis in no way proves evidence of that being a fact.

HI Ed,

So in other words.... you are saying....

NO MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MAN-MADE OPINION!

Yep, that's exactly hat he's saying

[Justaned]

Again Genesis 18 was offered by someone as proof that God was limited. That was not my position it was the position of others and Genesis 18 was offered as evidence. I said if evidence is tainted because it causes conflict with the rest of scripture. That has been my position all along. God is not limited and Genesis in no way proves evidence of that being a fact.

HI Ed,

So in other words.... you are saying....

NO MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MAN-MADE OPINION!

I am saying when man's interpretation of what is said produces a conflict with the rest (whole) of scripture I will not accept their interpretation.

[Justaned]

Again Genesis 18 was offered by someone as proof that God was limited. That was not my position it was the position of others and Genesis 18 was offered as evidence. I said if evidence is tainted because it causes conflict with the rest of scripture. That has been my position all along. God is not limited and Genesis in no way proves evidence of that being a fact.

HI Ed,

So in other words.... you are saying....

NO MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MAN-MADE OPINION!

Yep, that's exactly hat he's saying

nope that is not what I am saying that is what you are trying to say I said. Again just like Satan did in the garden you are trying to add to the truth that was spoken.

[Rocky]

<<WARNING>>>
The following Statements may be offensive to some readers, and is nothing personal against to whom it is addressed



Hi Ed, again others are giving you scripture and you seem to be rejecting it. I cant believe what I have been reading, and personally I believe you make God out to be very cruel, just a personal observation. Ok you claim that God knows our decisions and what we do beforehand and still tests our free will, to me you are making our God out to be some kind of sadist who wants to punish us and test us just to watch us squirm, And for what?, To make us stronger? Well do we need a safe word to make your version of god to stop whippings us? You seem to be denying a revelation that is shown in scripture about this. You will claim you are not, but according to your replies you seem to be. It's as if you are depicting a different god then what is portrayed in the bible. Warning, Blunt statement ahead >I will not follow a god that you are depicting in this thread. Ok now that is said, I hope your day is going well

With this logic you cannot explain and are just helping the atheist and most other unbelievers to be right about their understanding about the Christian God because you are unable to explain or answer:
why God tests us?
Why do bad and even horrific things happen to good people?
Why did God even create Lucifer if he knew he was going to fall?
Why did God create humans if he knew we were going to fall?
why did God even put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place if he knew Adam and Eve were going to eat it?
However if you really take the bible for what is says it can be understood, but not with your man made logic. People who usually have the same understanding as you always offers some generic response like " :oh we can never know" <Like how I put the emote as an O in oh to express embarrassment for not knowing? lol and "we will know when we get to heaven" and the oldie but goodie "every thing happens for a reason" But Ed guess what? In the bible it is explained as to why, you are just rejecting it...