Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Theophostic Prayer

[Justaned]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

[Justaned]

I don't think the renewal of the mind is defining factor of what Theophostic prayer is but rather the definition centers on the methodology that is employed to accomplish that.

That methodology is in my opinion what should be in question. Is it sound or does it open the mind to deception from Satan?

I had a case where a daughter was taking a mandatory psych class in college. One day she announced to the family at large that she had been sexually molested as a child. Of course that caught everyone's attention and all wanted to know who had done it. She confessed she didn't know but that she was certain it was neither her father or her Grandfather. At which point she was asked if it had been a woman and again she said no. But that she was sure she had been molested.
Her mother then told her it was impossible. Since the only male she had ever been alone with was her father and possibly her Grandfather. She young woman was certain her mother was wrong that she had to be been in the presence of other males. But her mother was positive that she being perhaps overly protective had never allowed the child to alone with a male of any reason.

5 years later the girl came to her family and announced that she had been mistaken that the Psych class had offered a checklist of symptoms resulting from early like child molestation and she was sure she had all the symptoms. All these symptoms were the product of the Psych professor insisting the students empty their minds and think about fears and hurts in their past. She really believed she had suffered from the effects of molestation.

My blood runs cold when I think of what could have happened. Had the mother not been so careful and had allowed the child alone with various men. The accusation could have been seen as having some truth which would have resulted into possible accusations and who knows what.

I get worried when they say empty your mind, scripture says to pray continuously.

[bibleman]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

Didn't say it was exclusive, just that it was WOF theology.

[Grandfather]

I don't think the renewal of the mind is defining factor of what Theophostic prayer is but rather the definition centers on the methodology that is employed to accomplish that.

That methodology is in my opinion what should be in question. Is it sound or does it open the mind to deception from Satan?

I had a case where a daughter was taking a mandatory psych class in college. One day she announced to the family at large that she had been sexually molested as a child. Of course that caught everyone's attention and all wanted to know who had done it. She confessed she didn't know but that she was certain it was neither her father or her Grandfather. At which point she was asked if it had been a woman and again she said no. But that she was sure she had been molested.
Her mother then told her it was impossible. Since the only male she had ever been alone with was her father and possibly her Grandfather. She young woman was certain her mother was wrong that she had to be been in the presence of other males. But her mother was positive that she being perhaps overly protective had never allowed the child to alone with a male of any reason.

5 years later the girl came to her family and announced that she had been mistaken that the Psych class had offered a checklist of symptoms resulting from early like child molestation and she was sure she had all the symptoms. All these symptoms were the product of the Psych professor insisting the students empty their minds and think about fears and hurts in their past. She really believed she had suffered from the effects of molestation.

My blood runs cold when I think of what could have happened. Had the mother not been so careful and had allowed the child alone with various men. The accusation could have been seen as having some truth which would have resulted into possible accusations and who knows what.

I get worried when they say empty your mind, scripture says to pray continuously.

Ed,

You've given a good example of how something impacts someone in one way while not impacting everyone in the same way. I believe we could all give example of people attempting to do the right thing, but doing it the wrong way. Or perhaps people doing the right thing, the right way, and people hearing and implementing it in the wrong way.

Also I agree METHODOLOGY is important, but with that understanding it is equally important to realize that (relatively speaking) there is very little universal methodology given in the scripture.

[Justaned]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

Didn't say it was exclusive, just that it was WOF theology.

Oh I misunderstood I thought you were pointing out that renewing the mind was a defining or exclusive doctrine of the WOF. My mistake.

[bibleman]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

Didn't say it was exclusive, just that it was WOF theology.

Oh I misunderstood I thought you were pointing out that renewing the mind was a defining or exclusive doctrine of the WOF. My mistake.

Defining? Probably!

Exclusive? No, of course not.

[Justaned]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

Didn't say it was exclusive, just that it was WOF theology.

Oh I misunderstood I thought you were pointing out that renewing the mind was a defining or exclusive doctrine of the WOF. My mistake.

Defining? Probably!

Exclusive? No, of course not.

Defining I think not! Since I believe all classic Christian theologies hold to the renewing of the mind as taught in scripture.

[bibleman]

So I would like to know why this is classic WOF theology?

Ed,

Since I agreed with Bibleman, I will venture an attempt to answer your question. I assumed the word "classic" to refer to traditionally accepted. As you know there is no codified theology for WOF so a more traditional use of term "classical" might not apply.

So, with that as back drop.... I have found that traditionally WOF tend to believe that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ" As seen in the statement that Joel Osteen says... This is my Bible... I am who it says I am and I can have what it says I can have....

Inherent in this is the passage of Romans 12:1,2 where people need to realize that that world has been molding their thought process and thinking patterns. It, the world uses every opportunity to get us to think "incorrectly". For example, maybe as a child a person was abused, mistreated, unloved, and as a result has a difficult time understanding they are valued. Because they think they are "unworthy" or of little value it begins to impact the way they act, they talk, etc. Simply telling someone this is not true, may not solve the problem (heal the wound in theophostic terms) but it is renewing the mind, the thinking process, that begins that healing. Literally a person must change the way they think. That is traditionally (hence classically) what I've seen in WOF circles.

I thought all Christian denominations believed that a renewing of the mind begins with accepting what the Word of God says about who they are "in Christ". I was using the phrase "this is my bible, I am who it says I am and I can have what is says I can have", probably before Joel Osteen was born. I believed I learned it from my Methodist pastor and if not from my AoG pastor/mentor.

So I'm a little bewildered by comment it is WOF theology. I see the need for the renewing of the mind to be classic Christian Theology, certainly not a WoF exclusive.

Didn't say it was exclusive, just that it was WOF theology.

Oh I misunderstood I thought you were pointing out that renewing the mind was a defining or exclusive doctrine of the WOF. My mistake.

Defining? Probably!

Exclusive? No, of course not.

Defining I think not! Since I believe all classic Christian theologies hold to the renewing of the mind as taught in scripture.

Well think about it Ed,....

A church that teaches once saved always saved would not teach the renewing of the mind.

And a number of Christian denominations teach this false doctrine.

[Grandfather]

Well think about it Ed,....

A church that teaches once saved always saved would not teach the renewing of the mind.

And a number of Christian denominations teach this false doctrine.

You raise some interesting points, but I will only address one and that is what a OSAS church would teach a need to renew the mind.

A while back I posted a quote by Tim Keller, who believes OSAS, that said; "“The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous." and that quote was condemned by several on this board. Their objection was the idea that Christians sin. Several posted scriptures in an effort to support they don't sin. One responded with 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil, another posted 1 Pet 2:24 ...that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness.

When I responded with ...In ourselves we are still sinful and sinning... In Christ we are accepted and righteous. The replying comment was "SIGH" another reply was "This person has NOT received salvation at all they are still sinning"

Victory summed up the stance against that quote with

Even if what you are saying is true, Keller said NOTHING about a process. He says "Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning". For ME, the Bible overrides you and Keller's personal beliefs on this subject no matter how philosophically profound they may appear to be.

Openly stating that, in his opinion, Christians are no longer sinful and no longer sin.

Now, I ask you, if Christians are no longer sinful and no longer sin --- WHY DO THEY NEED TO RENEW THEIR MINDS? As Paul writes Romans 12, the renewing of the mind is to keep us from being conformed by the world. The renewing of the mind allows us to understand and know the will of God. In my opinion, only someone who has a mind needful of renewal would need that. That person would be a someone that the sinful world had influenced and impacted. A person who is not sinful would have a correct mind, a mind that would not need to be renewed.

Therefor, those in the OSAS crowd generally admit they are sinners saved by grace. They also acknowledge they need to be conformed to the mind of Christ and therefor they need to renew their minds. At least that has been my experience with them, I know it is Tim Kellers, but perhaps yours is different.

[bibleman]

Well think about it Ed,....

A church that teaches once saved always saved would not teach the renewing of the mind.

And a number of Christian denominations teach this false doctrine.

You raise some interesting points, but I will only address one and that is what a OSAS church would teach a need to renew the mind.

A while back I posted a quote by Tim Keller, who believes OSAS, that said; "“The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous." and that quote was condemned by several on this board. Their objection was the idea that Christians sin. Several posted scriptures in an effort to support they don't sin. One responded with 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil, another posted 1 Pet 2:24 ...that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness.

When I responded with ...In ourselves we are still sinful and sinning... In Christ we are accepted and righteous. The replying comment was "SIGH" another reply was "This person has NOT received salvation at all they are still sinning"

Victory summed up the stance against that quote with

Even if what you are saying is true, Keller said NOTHING about a process. He says "Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning". For ME, the Bible overrides you and Keller's personal beliefs on this subject no matter how philosophically profound they may appear to be.

Openly stating that, in his opinion, Christians are no longer sinful and no longer sin.

Now, I ask you, if Christians are no longer sinful and no longer sin --- WHY DO THEY NEED TO RENEW THEIR MINDS? As Paul writes Romans 12, the renewing of the mind is to keep us from being conformed by the world. The renewing of the mind allows us to understand and know the will of God. In my opinion, only someone who has a mind needful of renewal would need that. That person would be a someone that the sinful world had influenced and impacted. A person who is not sinful would have a correct mind, a mind that would not need to be renewed.

Therefor, those in the OSAS crowd generally admit they are sinners saved by grace. They also acknowledge they need to be conformed to the mind of Christ and therefor they need to renew their minds. At least that has been my experience with them, I know it is Tim Kellers, but perhaps yours is different.

Why would a OSAS person need to renew their mind?

They don't even have to stop sinning... and sinning comes from the heart... then to the mind... then to the body.

So if they are still sinners then obviously their mind is not renewed.