Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Sovereignty vs Free Will

[Grandfather]

God's and man's sovereignty can clearly be seen in the story of Joseph and his brothers. His brothers made sovereign decisions and decided to sell Joseph and tell his father he was dead. Joseph made sovereign decisions to follow what he was taught and acted accordingly. Each event of Joseph's life was sovereign unto the person that made the decision.

However when Joseph finally reveals himself to his brothers in Egypt his testimony gives all the credit for what occurred to the sovereign God.
Genesis 50:20 (NKJV)
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Scripture tells us scripture is God breathed so this is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of what occurred.

How does this all take place? We don't know. We are assured God is too loving of a God to manipulate man. So God has to be fully sovereign and allow man to make his own decisions. We know that God transcend time so I believe the answer must be located in it. However since we don't fully understand how the creator of time functions in time we can only speculate.

As for criticism of Calvinism amplifying this problem, you are correct but while Calvinism is in the ditch on one side of the road, most of our thinking contrary to it is in the ditch on the other side of the road. I think the answer is going to be found on the road.

Ed, Interesting perspective. At least you have the courage to admit you don't know and that we must speculate. Bravo to that. However, while I believe your example supports your position I am reminded of the scripture that says "by the mouth of 2 or 3 witness let everything be established" So, while one example is great, giving two or three additional examples would solidify your position. Can you do that?

Well the story of Moses from him being placed in a basket and set adrift in the river to his leading the Children of Israel into the Promise Land has to be another classic example of Man's sovereignty and God's being knitted together to accomplish God's ultimate plan.

Frankly all prophecy given in scripture involves man's free will choice and God Sovereignty. Either God is in control of the outcome of all those prophecies or God is a real good guesser (100% accuracy rate on thousands of prophecies over thousands of years time span)

The story I love is the old prophet and new prophet found in the 1 Kings 13. If you follow that story you see man making choices, you see God's sovereignty and you see results from all those actions many years into the future. Fascinating story and one I have taught on many times.

I wholeheartedly agree that one can read these stories and see the sovereignty of God interacting with the freewill of man, IF that is what they chose to see.

It has been said: That many claim to have made lengthy searches and in-depth study, when in reality all they have done is to make virtually no research at all. All too often, a person will simply hear the particular position he likes, in light of a few select verses, and then force all Scripture to submit to it, and then call it “the truth.” without examining the full extent of all positions.

[Grandfather]

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that none of us "found" Him due to our own efforts, but we were found by Him (John 15). Yet we were given the choice to respond to His grace, but even that choice was a gift from God (Eph 2). However, that does not mean we were coerced or forced into a decision, that decision was our own free choice. However, because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them.

Grandfather

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

When that happens do we then lose our free will? If Jesus is really Lord of the our lives where does our free will play into the equation?

I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man.

[Justaned]

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that none of us "found" Him due to our own efforts, but we were found by Him (John 15). Yet we were given the choice to respond to His grace, but even that choice was a gift from God (Eph 2). However, that does not mean we were coerced or forced into a decision, that decision was our own free choice. However, because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them.

Grandfather

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

When that happens do we then lose our free will? If Jesus is really Lord of the our lives where does our free will play into the equation?

I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ironman]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

[Justaned]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

Ironman
If you hypothesis is correct then God is not all knowing. So what do we do with God's Omniscience?

5. Omniscience.
O Lord, thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
—Psalm 139:1-4
Two aspects of God's all-knowledge are emphasized in the Scriptures. First, nothing happens anywhere of which He is ignorant. Man cannot hide either his actions or his thoughts from God. If Gehazi's dishonesty and deceit were known to the prophet of God, they were certainly not hidden from the omniscient One (2 Ki. 5:20-27). God brought to light in judgment the deceitful schemes of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). In the letters to the seven Churches of Asia, the Lord clearly describes not only their actions, but also their inward spiritual condition (Rev. 2:1-3:22). All things are present to Him.
Secondly, God is also all-wise in His plans and purposes. He knows all things from the beginning. He has, in His wisdom, planned the redemption of His people, the building of His church, and the triumph of His kingdom. For example:
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ.
—Ephesians 1:8-10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purposes which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Ephesians 3:9-11
It is encouraging to know that God, in His wisdom, has made plans that He will carry to completion, in spite of the freedom of will and choice He permits man to exercise. And when we love Him, in His wisdom He works all things together for good (Rom. 8:28
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 72-73.

[victoryword]

There would be no need to reconcile the two (God's sovereignty and free-will) if so many of the church had never been influenced by the unbiblical distortion of God's sovereignty handed down to us by Augustine, Luther, and Calvin with its originas in gnosticism. Their view of God's character in this regard as an all controlling deity was warped at best at demonic at worse.

If we simply stuck with how the Bible defines the sovereignty of God in which He establishes His laws and penalties but leaves man the freedom and choice to obey or disobey them then we would never have had this centuries old debate.

Victoryword,

Thats a bold and sweeping accusation you've leveled at Augustine, Luther and Calvin, but it is not the first time I've heard it. But just because it's been made doesn't mean it is true because I've also heard similar accusations leveled at those that support the position of man having a free-will.

Could you please support both that accusation as well as your position of "how the Bible defines the sovereignty of God" so I can share it with others?

GF

Yes, you will find that I am very bold :)

However, it would take pages upon pages to cite from the numerous sources I have (besides the time to type a lot of them up). Many of the Church Fathers repudiated the Gnostics for "predestination" teachings, many of the same teachings found within Calvinism.

BUt very quickly, here is something that John Calvin said:

• "..we say that God once established by his eternal and unchangeable plan those whom he long before determined once for all to receive into salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, he would devote to destruction. ...he has barred the door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation." Bk 3, Ch 21, s. 7

The Bible sas in contrast:

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

You can find Calvin's institutes online and read where he makes God the predestinator of man's fall, of all sickness and accidents, and has chosen who would go to heaven or hell. Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" (also available online) is also a very "hyper-calvinistic" book though it predates John Calvin. Both say that Augustine was their theological influence. Augustine reacted in a extreme manner to Pelagius' teachings on free-will. All of these distort and micharacterize the God of love and truth.

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

Ironman
If you hypothesis is correct then God is not all knowing. So what do we do with God's Omniscience?

5. Omniscience.
O Lord, thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
—Psalm 139:1-4
Two aspects of God's all-knowledge are emphasized in the Scriptures. First, nothing happens anywhere of which He is ignorant. Man cannot hide either his actions or his thoughts from God. If Gehazi's dishonesty and deceit were known to the prophet of God, they were certainly not hidden from the omniscient One (2 Ki. 5:20-27). God brought to light in judgment the deceitful schemes of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). In the letters to the seven Churches of Asia, the Lord clearly describes not only their actions, but also their inward spiritual condition (Rev. 2:1-3:22). All things are present to Him.
Secondly, God is also all-wise in His plans and purposes. He knows all things from the beginning. He has, in His wisdom, planned the redemption of His people, the building of His church, and the triumph of His kingdom. For example:
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ.
—Ephesians 1:8-10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purposes which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Ephesians 3:9-11
It is encouraging to know that God, in His wisdom, has made plans that He will carry to completion, in spite of the freedom of will and choice He permits man to exercise. And when we love Him, in His wisdom He works all things together for good (Rom. 8:28
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 72-73.

Thanks Ironman,

You gave a very powerful verse of Scripture.

Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

For Bible believers it is very simple - just believe the Bible.

[victoryword]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

Ironman
If you hypothesis is correct then God is not all knowing. So what do we do with God's Omniscience?

5. Omniscience.
O Lord, thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
—Psalm 139:1-4
Two aspects of God's all-knowledge are emphasized in the Scriptures. First, nothing happens anywhere of which He is ignorant. Man cannot hide either his actions or his thoughts from God. If Gehazi's dishonesty and deceit were known to the prophet of God, they were certainly not hidden from the omniscient One (2 Ki. 5:20-27). God brought to light in judgment the deceitful schemes of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). In the letters to the seven Churches of Asia, the Lord clearly describes not only their actions, but also their inward spiritual condition (Rev. 2:1-3:22). All things are present to Him.
Secondly, God is also all-wise in His plans and purposes. He knows all things from the beginning. He has, in His wisdom, planned the redemption of His people, the building of His church, and the triumph of His kingdom. For example:
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ.
—Ephesians 1:8-10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purposes which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Ephesians 3:9-11
It is encouraging to know that God, in His wisdom, has made plans that He will carry to completion, in spite of the freedom of will and choice He permits man to exercise. And when we love Him, in His wisdom He works all things together for good (Rom. 8:28
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 72-73.

Ironman and I don't always agree on everything but I agree with him in relation to God's foreknowledge. I do like Duffield and Van Cleave's book (I have a hard copy of it) but, like you said to Justaned about his Calvinistic ideas, exhaustive foreknowledge is also read into many passages of Scripture. If God had foreknown all that was going to happen upon creation then He was not being completely honest when He said the following:

• Genesis 6:5-7
  5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

[bibleman]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

Ironman
If you hypothesis is correct then God is not all knowing. So what do we do with God's Omniscience?

5. Omniscience.
O Lord, thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
—Psalm 139:1-4
Two aspects of God's all-knowledge are emphasized in the Scriptures. First, nothing happens anywhere of which He is ignorant. Man cannot hide either his actions or his thoughts from God. If Gehazi's dishonesty and deceit were known to the prophet of God, they were certainly not hidden from the omniscient One (2 Ki. 5:20-27). God brought to light in judgment the deceitful schemes of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). In the letters to the seven Churches of Asia, the Lord clearly describes not only their actions, but also their inward spiritual condition (Rev. 2:1-3:22). All things are present to Him.
Secondly, God is also all-wise in His plans and purposes. He knows all things from the beginning. He has, in His wisdom, planned the redemption of His people, the building of His church, and the triumph of His kingdom. For example:
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ.
—Ephesians 1:8-10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purposes which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Ephesians 3:9-11
It is encouraging to know that God, in His wisdom, has made plans that He will carry to completion, in spite of the freedom of will and choice He permits man to exercise. And when we love Him, in His wisdom He works all things together for good (Rom. 8:28
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 72-73.

Ironman and I don't always agree on everything but I agree with him in relation to God's foreknowledge. I do like Duffield and Van Cleave's book (I have a hard copy of it) but, like you said to Justaned about his Calvinistic ideas, exhaustive foreknowledge is also read into many passages of Scripture. If God had foreknown all that was going to happen upon creation then He was not being completely honest when He said the following:

• Genesis 6:5-7
  5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

[Justaned]

Hi Grandfather.

You wrote;

"I don't believe we ever lose our "freewill" and the prime reason I believe that is because LOVE is a choice. Force, coerced love is not love, at best it is whoredom if even that. So, as I said in my closing sentences... "because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them"

I have come to the position that my free-will does not impact the sovereignty of God. I am deluded if I think because I have freewill that I also have some type of sovereign reign on areas of my life. We have choices, and those choices have consequences, those consequences are set in place by a sovereign God not a sovereign choice of man."

.

I agree that we do never lose our free will. I also agree God is the alpha and Omega.

Here's where I disagree with your statement.
God knows His Plan for man and all therein from beginning to end. God does not know what free will choices men will make until they make them, and God will alter and change the course of His Plan, if men the He chooses to use in carrying our His plan freely chose not to co-operate. Abraham is one example. God did not know until Abraham lifted his hand to strike his son dead as God asked him to do, to test him. It was only after God saw Abraham was about to kill his son that God stoped him and said; Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God didn't know before hand, because if He did know before hand, then there was no need to test Abraham, and if God did know before hand that Abraham feared God and would do whatever asked, and still test him and say and then say after the test, "Now I know, God could be accused of telling lies in saying Now I know, after the test.



Cheers mate,

ironman

Ironman
If you hypothesis is correct then God is not all knowing. So what do we do with God's Omniscience?

5. Omniscience.
O Lord, thou has searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
—Psalm 139:1-4
Two aspects of God's all-knowledge are emphasized in the Scriptures. First, nothing happens anywhere of which He is ignorant. Man cannot hide either his actions or his thoughts from God. If Gehazi's dishonesty and deceit were known to the prophet of God, they were certainly not hidden from the omniscient One (2 Ki. 5:20-27). God brought to light in judgment the deceitful schemes of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11). In the letters to the seven Churches of Asia, the Lord clearly describes not only their actions, but also their inward spiritual condition (Rev. 2:1-3:22). All things are present to Him.
Secondly, God is also all-wise in His plans and purposes. He knows all things from the beginning. He has, in His wisdom, planned the redemption of His people, the building of His church, and the triumph of His kingdom. For example:
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ.
—Ephesians 1:8-10
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purposes which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Ephesians 3:9-11
It is encouraging to know that God, in His wisdom, has made plans that He will carry to completion, in spite of the freedom of will and choice He permits man to exercise. And when we love Him, in His wisdom He works all things together for good (Rom. 8:28
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 72-73.

Ironman and I don't always agree on everything but I agree with him in relation to God's foreknowledge. I do like Duffield and Van Cleave's book (I have a hard copy of it) but, like you said to Justaned about his Calvinistic ideas, exhaustive foreknowledge is also read into many passages of Scripture. If God had foreknown all that was going to happen upon creation then He was not being completely honest when He said the following:

• Genesis 6:5-7
  5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

Victorywood
First you seem to love to compare God to schizo's, you have done it in many posts and of course you always say no God isn't schizo. But the point is I don't think the two belong in the same sentence even if it is just as a bad example. To me it shows you have little fear of God. Enough said!

You never have done anything and then say "I knew that would happen and I really wish I hadn't done it?" When our children are born do we not know they are going to sin? Does their sin really surprise us? Does it disappoint us? Why should God be any different?

Scripture attests to God's foreknowledge in clear and concise words, scripture attests to God's omniscience in clear and concise term. Yet you want to deny it and use examples like the one you use here to suggest God was surprised or even worse.

No one is speaking of predestination, or of man not having free will. What we are saying is God is big enough and God enough to allow man to have free will and God is still able to have total sovereignty and accomplish His will.