Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHAT IS LORDSHIP SALVATION????

[victoryword]

I understand your hatred of Calvinism. I hate it too. However problems of Calvinism or even Lordship is not part of this discussion. This thread was established to give an accurate definition of Lordship.

I want to believe that Ed. Despite our very very strong disagreements I believe that you are a man of integrity, so I am not questioning that, but many of your posts seem to lean very strongly towards Calvinism, much more than towards classic Pentecostalism. Can you explain that to me?

What is Lordship? Not who invented/named it? Or what is wrong with it? But what is it?

This is a good question for the discussion. Of course for at least 20 years I was led to believe that this was invented by John MacArthur. However, I never bothered to research it and haven't thought about it in years. You and Rocky are the first in a long time to even give me or point me to some definitions of it. However, if it is what Rocky has said or what you point out from the link, I consider it truth mixed with falsehood (as most false theologies are).

[Justaned]

If any one is really interested in exploring Lordship this is an excellent article.

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/ ... ation.html

[Justaned]

I understand your hatred of Calvinism. I hate it too. However problems of Calvinism or even Lordship is not part of this discussion. This thread was established to give an accurate definition of Lordship.

I want to believe that Ed. Despite our very very strong disagreements I believe that you are a man of integrity, so I am not questioning that, but many of your posts seem to lean very strongly towards Calvinism, much more than towards classic Pentecostalism. Can you explain that to me?

I will try to answer that without sounding condescending or insulting. Let me say the answer to that question is very lengthy, (I started to type it out (three times now) and figured no one would take the time to read it).

Let me say in most situations there is a road and on either side of the road there are ditches. For some reason our theology never is satisfied being on the road it usually ends up in a ditch or either side. I try to stay in the center of the road and I'm secure enough in my theology not to worry if it appears too Calvinistic or too Arminianistic.

Classic Pentecostalism was birthed out of the Holiness movement, by people seeking more of God. I believe today classical Pentecostalism is rare and what is often called Pentecostalism is nothing more than people seeking manifestations and their religion that is all about them.

[branham1965]

i am like sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo over all this

Wow, this is weird I was going to start a thread about Lordship salvation lol
It is a soteriological theology. In a sense the unbeliever is working his way to salvation, and then when it is obtained by making Jesus lord the Christian will not lose his salvation because the Christian is unable to sin or willfully sin. Essentially God controls the will and keeps the Christian from sinning as long as they have succeeded in making Jesus lord, the theology also teaches if the Christian does sin he did not make Jesus lord when he initially converted hence the conversion was false. Its like saying you must believe but also make Jesus Lord, So the unbeliever is trying to do something he is unable to do. To me it just another confusing man made theology that confuses the simplicity of the Gospel. Another aspect of this is when the unbeliever believes and then makes him lord(which does not have a clear definition by the way) That this will automatically produce the works necessary to obtain salvation. And a true Christian wont willfully sin and automatic fruit will bare because they have made Jesus Lord, so intern the free will is done away with .Now this is not to be confused with calvinism but both take free will away from the believer. So both theologies are compatible with each other because most calvinist now days are also lordship salvation as well, but not all.

[/quote]

[Rocky]

Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections
From Theopedia http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

.

The irony of you saying "Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections" is that that the link is from a calvinistic website. The webmaster and admins are Lordship salvation and Calvinism adherents . And their definition is double talk jargon to confuse the issue of how unbiblical this theology really is. Of course that is a "Personal reflection"..

I didn't even have to go to the site. From the quote itself it begins to talk about the "P" in TULIP and I knew right away that this would be a problematic definition. The problem is that there is some truth in the definition ("....receiving Christ involves a turning in the heart from sin and, as a part of faith, a submissive commitment to obey Jesus Christ as Lord.") This I agree with. However, when they added the "also" then we get the poison that was placed ona piece of meat:

"Those who hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints see this not only as a requirement, but an assured certainty according to the sustaining grace of Christ."

THis is nothing but "unconditional election" which is one of the most horrendous false teachings that the Calvinists vomited out to the theological sphere.

I agree that is why I said this theology is very compatible with Calvinism. Which is why the likes of Paul washer and John MacArthur teach Lordship salvation along with Calvinism. Another thing I have studied on is there are two kinds of LS.,Calvinistic lordship salvation and Arminian LS, So to this, even Pentecostals adhere to it as well and get mistaken for being a Calvinist when in fact they are not, they are Armenian Lordship salvation . What I gave was a general overview of both versions of it.

[Rocky]

Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections
From Theopedia http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

.

The irony of you saying "Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections" is that that the link is from a calvinistic website. The webmaster and admins are Lordship salvation and Calvinism adherents . And their definition is double talk jargon to confuse the issue of how unbiblical this theology really is. Of course that is a "Personal reflection"..

Irony is there isn't any double talk and what you object to is the fact that it does not issue a condemning conclusion.
The fact that it is written by "Calvinistic website" is logical since it is a product of the Reformation.

Actually the discussion goes back the book of James and requirements of faith.

Removed my opinions as not appropriate at this point where we are trying to establish a definition rather than examine lordship.

Well nothing wrong with opinions that helps the discussions along. Another thing is, it is almost impossible to get a definition without actually examining it. Because there are at least two types, Calvinistic Lordship Salvation and Arminium Lordship salvation. But the common ground of both versions is its a Works base salvation, Even for initial justification and salvation, to where it is attained and not given as a gift by grace through faith.

[victoryword]

I will try to answer that without sounding condescending or insulting. Let me say the answer to that question is very lengthy, (I started to type it out (three times now) and figured no one would take the time to read it).

Let me say in most situations there is a road and on either side of the road there are ditches. For some reason our theology never is satisfied being on the road it usually ends up in a ditch or either side. I try to stay in the center of the road and I'm secure enough in my theology not to worry if it appears too Calvinistic or too Arminianistic.

Classic Pentecostalism was birthed out of the Holiness movement, by people seeking more of God. I believe today classical Pentecostalism is rare and what is often called Pentecostalism is nothing more than people seeking manifestations and their religion that is all about them.

So, are you a "Calminian"?

[branham1965]

i was aware of that.

Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections
From Theopedia http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

.

The irony of you saying "Here is a definition without personal implications or reflections" is that that the link is from a calvinistic website. The webmaster and admins are Lordship salvation and Calvinism adherents . And their definition is double talk jargon to confuse the issue of how unbiblical this theology really is. Of course that is a "Personal reflection"..

I didn't even have to go to the site. From the quote itself it begins to talk about the "P" in TULIP and I knew right away that this would be a problematic definition. The problem is that there is some truth in the definition ("....receiving Christ involves a turning in the heart from sin and, as a part of faith, a submissive commitment to obey Jesus Christ as Lord.") This I agree with. However, when they added the "also" then we get the poison that was placed ona piece of meat:

"Those who hold to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints see this not only as a requirement, but an assured certainty according to the sustaining grace of Christ."

THis is nothing but "unconditional election" which is one of the most horrendous false teachings that the Calvinists vomited out to the theological sphere.

I agree that is why I said this theology is very compatible with Calvinism. Which is why the likes of Paul washer and John MacArthur teach Lordship salvation along with Calvinism. Another thing I have studied on is there are two kinds of LS.,Calvinistic lordship salvation and Arminian LS, So to this, even Pentecostals adhere to it as well and get mistaken for being a Calvinist when in fact they are not, they are Armenian Lordship salvation . What I gave was a general overview of both versions of it.

[victoryword]

I agree that is why I said this theology is very compatible with Calvinism. Which is why the likes of Paul washer and John MacArthur teach Lordship salvation along with Calvinism. Another thing I have studied on is there are two kinds of LS.,Calvinistic lordship salvation and Arminian LS, So to this, even Pentecostals adhere to it as well and get mistaken for being a Calvinist when in fact they are not, they are Armenian Lordship salvation . What I gave was a general overview of both versions of it.

Good post Rocky. I Fully agree with you from what I am seeing about this teaching thus far.

However, I wouldn't want us to lose site of the fact that part of our salvation is to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). And also:

• Hebrews 5:9
  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is a tendency for us to reaact against a teaching by going to the extreme opposite of it. I think the difference between "Lordship salvation" which contains a nugget of truth mixed with a lie and the true Bible teaching on obedience is that when I am saved I will obey and not that I am obeying in order to earn salvation or in fear that my disobediene means that I am not one of the "elect" as the "P" in TULIP teaches.

[Justaned]

As someone said salvation requires the acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord.

Then the question becomes by lip service only or in actuality.

If Jesus must be acknowledged Lord then our lives have to be guided by Jesus. If not we are just paying lip service to the acknowledgement then.

Everything in reference to salvation today is the initial step get you saved then get you conditioned to being in church and paying your tithe. If you are in a Pentecostal environment you are taught to speak in tongues and if WOF taught to trust in your faith. And of course all teach on the "rules"

But very little is taught about forming a relationship with Christ, drawing closer to God, seeking to be lead by God, committing your life to Christ, living a sanctified lifestyle, developing a prayer life that is meaningful, growing in faith so they your trust in God's will for your life is better realized.

Is Jesus Lord in name only or in fact is Jesus Lord of your life? That is the question.