Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Some questions for all those that say God isn't in control

[Justaned]

Please read or listen to this guy, he'll explain a lot. ;)

http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/sovereignty_god

The article is based on a falsehood. The definition of sovereignity is not that God controls everything. God has allowed us free will, as proven by the fact we have a choice to accept His existence or reject it. So this article is using a faulty definition of sovereignity developed by secular men forced into the religious arena due to politicial pressures.

If we go back to scripture we see God as described therein as all knowing, all seeing and God that can do as He chooses. Which incidently coincides with the definition of a God.

Now let me hear you answers to these questions, please!

[frad70]

Either God controls/is responsible for 100% of what's happening or He is not. I believe He is not. If any of those who consider my WoF position heretical say God doesn't control 100% of what's happening they simply say they agree with my assertion that God is not in complete control of what's happening on this planet.

[Justaned]

Either God controls/is responsible for 100% of what's happening or He is not. I believe He is not. If any of those who consider my WoF position heretical say God doesn't control 100% of what's happening they simply say they agree with my assertion that God is not in complete control of what's happening on this planet.

Again you compound things. Control and responsibility is two different things.
God is responsible for everything that happens. That does mean he made it happen or even wanted it to happen but by definition God being God is responsible.
Control is mean many things to people it may mean like a puppeteer that controls everything the puppet does. Or it could mean God controls things man is not able to control, like weather. The point is we have to make a decisions here, Does God control things enough that he can changed things we pray for or are we praying as double minded people asking God to change things we don't believe God can change. Which is it?

[victoryword]

I highly recommedn an excellent book by Craig Hill titled, "If God is in Control then Why...?"


Also, Schizophrenic God? Finding Reality in Conflict, Confusion and Contradiction by Steve C. Shank.


These books debunk the "God is in control" myth and promote the message of faith, divine healing and miraculous intervention.

[victoryword]

Ed, I may not be able to give you the "intelligent" answer that you seek, but I will give you a BIBLICAL answer.

If God is no more than a bemused spectator of things that transpire on earth why do you pray to God for God to change things?

Joseph's brother wanted to kill him they sold him into slavery and he experience many things. Yet when the time came he was in the right place at exactly the right time. Was this coincidence? Or was it God?

Well, your question implies that God supernaturally turned Jospeh's brothers into nasty sinful beings who almost murdered him but leter sold him as a slave to Egypt. Later, your question implies God had Potiphar's wife lie on Joseph and had him thrown in prison. The interesting thing about those two is that your questions ascribes to God the works of the devil whom Jesus says is a LIAR and a MURDERER.

God's involvement with Joseph's situation is beatifully summed up by Stephen under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

• And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. (Acts 7:9-10)

Envy is blamed for what Jospeh's brothers did and not God. God is credited for simply being with Joseph and DELIVERING him. God did not put him in the situation, but He did get him out of it.
Is it being double minded to believe man or Satan is in control but still pray to God for God to change things?

IF we are all healed at the cross why do we still pray for healing? Shouldn't we just accept it and be done with it? Why pray for God to heal us? According to to many physical healing was provided at that cross for all and we are already healed. So why is more prayer required?

We could say the same thing for salvation, unless, of course, you adhere to "unconditional election". Since you seem to be so heavily calvinistic in your thinking it would not suprise me if you do. However, it would show how utterly unbiblical you are. Now, if you do NOT accept the "U" in the TULIP then you should not even be asking this question unless you will apply the same faulty logic to salvation.

God makes numerous benefits available via the cross (and the resurrection) but that does not mean that we receive them automatically. God wants to do many things for people but we often reject His generosity (Psalm 81; Luke 7:30; Rev. 3:20; etc.). The benefits of the cross (and the resurrection) must be CLAIMED.

If a person has a car wreak and lives we praise God but if they died then we say Satan did it. If God has no power how did he save the person from being killed?

I wish this question was a joke but I have been around here long enough to know that you are NOT joking. The fact is God is the life giver and protector and Satan is the murderer and killer (John 10:10; 8:44). Quite often, when someone is in danger of an accident God has often had someone else (friend, family member, etc.) pray and intercede and the person escapes the accident. I know that this happened with some close friends of mine. Others had no one praying for them and they died.

The question I would have for you is, if God is not willing that anyone should perish (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9) and that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18) then why would He "control" the death of a person to die in an accident who does not know Jesus?

Please give thoughtful intelligent answers for your belief that God isn't in control in these situations.

Not sure if I met the criteria spelled out here but I did attempt to give BIBLICAL answers.

[Justaned]

I highly recommedn a excelent book by Craig Hill titled, "If God is in Control then Why...?"


Also, Schizophrenic God? Finding Reality in Conflict, Confusion and Contradiction by Steve C. Shank.


These books debunk the "God is in control" myth and promote the message of faith, divine healing and miraculous intervention.

Okay then answer my questions.

If you really believe God isn't in control why do you pray for God to change a situation?

If God isn't control how did the journey of Joseph turn out as it did, with Joseph in the exact right place as the exact right time to save the Children of Israel from death?

If God isn't in control how did the fire that consumed Korath occur when he opposed Moses?

If a car accident occurs and people are killed we attribute it to Satan but if the people live we say God saved them?

[victoryword]

Either God controls/is responsible for 100% of what's happening or He is not. I believe He is not. If any of those who consider my WoF position heretical say God doesn't control 100% of what's happening they simply say they agree with my assertion that God is not in complete control of what's happening on this planet.

Again you compound things. Control and responsibility is two different things.
God is responsible for everything that happens. That does mean he made it happen or even wanted it to happen but by definition God being God is responsible.
Control is mean many things to people it may mean like a puppeteer that controls everything the puppet does. Or it could mean God controls things man is not able to control, like weather. The point is we have to make a decisions here, Does God control things enough that he can changed things we pray for or are we praying as double minded people asking God to change things we don't believe God can change. Which is it?

And where you miss it Ed is in the fact that God almost ALWAYS delegates His responsibility to us, HIs co-laborers. He has been doing that since the day He created man and that is why there is a judgment seat" TO HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE FOR EITHER OUR SUCCESS OR FAILURE TO FULFILL OUR RESPONSIBILITIES.

Your idea that God controlls everything flies in the face of the fact that God delegates responnsibility to His people.

[victoryword]

I highly recommedn a excelent book by Craig Hill titled, "If God is in Control then Why...?"


Also, Schizophrenic God? Finding Reality in Conflict, Confusion and Contradiction by Steve C. Shank.


These books debunk the "God is in control" myth and promote the message of faith, divine healing and miraculous intervention.

Okay then answer my questions.

If you really believe God isn't in control why do you pray for God to change a situation?

If God isn't control how did the journey of Joseph turn out as it did, with Joseph in the exact right place as the exact right time to save the Children of Israel from death?

If God isn't in control how did the fire that consumed Korath occur when he opposed Moses?

If a car accident occurs and people are killed we attribute it to Satan but if the people live we say God saved them?

I answered all of those. Did you miss my post? Did God somehow sovereignly cause you to miss my post or will you take responsibility for this particular oversight? If you take responsibility for missing my post in which I already answered your question then that means that God is not in control. If God caused you to miss my post then that means that our imperfections are God's doing and not ours and you and I should not have to repent for God making us make mistakes.

[Justaned]

Ed, I may not be able to give you the "intelligent" answer that you seek, but I will give you a BIBLICAL answer.

If God is no more than a bemused spectator of things that transpire on earth why do you pray to God for God to change things?

Joseph's brother wanted to kill him they sold him into slavery and he experience many things. Yet when the time came he was in the right place at exactly the right time. Was this coincidence? Or was it God?

Well, your question implies that God supernaturally turned Jospeh's brothers into nasty sinful beings who almost murdered him but leter sold him as a slave to Egypt. Later, your question implies God had Potiphar's wife lie on Joseph and had him thrown in prison. The interesting thing about those two is that your questions ascribes to God the works of the devil whom Jesus says is a LIAR and a MURDERER.

Why does my question imply that? Can't God allowed Joseph's and Potiphar's wife to do those things that their own will but knowing that they would do those things set in place things that would end with Joseph being in the right place at the right time according to God's will?

Explain my my question implies what you say it does.

God's involvement with Joseph's situation is beatifully summed up by Stephen under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

• And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. (Acts 7:9-10)

Envy is blamed for what Jospeh's brothers did and not God. God is credited for simply being with Joseph and DELIVERING him. God did not put him in the situation, but He did get him out of it.
Is it being double minded to believe man or Satan is in control but still pray to God for God to change things?

Doesn't this quote of Stephen sum up what I said? And didn't God have to be in control to make it come to pass?

IF we are all healed at the cross why do we still pray for healing? Shouldn't we just accept it and be done with it? Why pray for God to heal us? According to to many physical healing was provided at that cross for all and we are already healed. So why is more prayer required?

We could say the same thing for salvation, unless, of course, you adhere to "unconditional election". Since you seem to be so heavily calvinistic in your thinking it would not suprise me if you do. However, it would show how utterly unbiblical you are. Now, if you do NOT accept the "U" in the TULIP then you should not even be asking this question unless you will apply the same faulty logic to salvation.

God makes numerous benefits available via the cross (and the resurrection) but that does not mean that we receive them automatically. God wants to do many things for people but we often reject His generosity (Psalm 81; Luke 7:30; Rev. 3:20; etc.). The benefits of the cross (and the resurrection) must be CLAIMED.

Again you answer by not answering. You instead try to insult me by calling me a Calvinist which I'm not. So you are saying healing and salvation are two different things. Both occur as salvation but only if the person accepts both. However that is stated no where in scripture.

In effect your answer is when we ask God into our lives we only get pieces unless we all for all. Does that even remotely sound logical to you?

If a person has a car wreak and lives we praise God but if they died then we say Satan did it. If God has no power how did he save the person from being killed?

I wish this question was a joke but I have been around here long enough to know that you are NOT joking. The fact is God is the life giver and protector and Satan is the murderer and killer (John 10:10; 8:44). Quite often, when someone is in danger of an accident God has often had someone else (friend, family member, etc.) pray and intercede and the person escapes the accident. I know that this happened with some close friends of mine. Others had no one praying for them and they died.

Okay how does God intercede unless God is able to intercede? If God can override Satan then isn't God that is in control and not Satan?
Please explain how this works?

The question I would have for you is, if God is not willing that anyone should perish (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9) and that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18) then why would He "control" the death of a person to die in an accident who does not know Jesus?

I have no idea I'm not God not do I pretend to talk for God as you do. My guess the person that died in the accident did have a choice to accept God or not. What their choice was I don't know nor do you.

Please give thoughtful intelligent answers for your belief that God isn't in control in these situations.

Not sure if I met the criteria spelled out here but I did attempt to give BIBLICAL answers.

[/quote]

Actually you didn't. You gave answers that tried to assign the problem of answering them to me and my questions.

Again if you don't think God can change things which means he is in control than why pray to God for Him to change something?

[Justaned]

Either God controls/is responsible for 100% of what's happening or He is not. I believe He is not. If any of those who consider my WoF position heretical say God doesn't control 100% of what's happening they simply say they agree with my assertion that God is not in complete control of what's happening on this planet.

Again you compound things. Control and responsibility is two different things.
God is responsible for everything that happens. That does mean he made it happen or even wanted it to happen but by definition God being God is responsible.
Control is mean many things to people it may mean like a puppeteer that controls everything the puppet does. Or it could mean God controls things man is not able to control, like weather. The point is we have to make a decisions here, Does God control things enough that he can changed things we pray for or are we praying as double minded people asking God to change things we don't believe God can change. Which is it?

And where you miss it Ed is in the fact that God almost ALWAYS delegates His responsibility to us, HIs co-laborers. He has been doing that since the day He created man and that is why there is a judgment seat" TO HOLD US ACCOUNTABLE FOR EITHER OUR SUCCESS OR FAILURE TO FULFILL OUR RESPONSIBILITIES.

Your idea that God controlls everything flies in the face of the fact that God delegates responnsibility to His people.

Where does delegating responsibility to us make God lose control?
I totally agree we are responsible for our actions but I also believe God is not powerless to anything in light of those actions.