Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Hebrw 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-30

[titus213]

In your example of Pslam 103 they didn't not expect or realize that their sin would be as far as the east is from the west until they had placed it under an animal sacrifice.

Have you read the Psalm? No mention of sacrifice; their awareness of forgiveness was based on God's revealed character, according to this Psalm. See also Psalm 51, which reflects the true faith of Israel that sacrifice and offering were the response to salvation, and not the necessary ingredients of salvation. Salvation was based then, as now, on repentance and faith.

[Justaned]

In your example of Pslam 103 they didn't not expect or realize that their sin would be as far as the east is from the west until they had placed it under an animal sacrifice.

Have you read the Psalm? No mention of sacrifice; their awareness of forgiveness was based on God's revealed character, according to this Psalm. See also Psalm 51, which reflects the true faith of Israel that sacrifice and offering were the response to salvation, and not the necessary ingredients of salvation. Salvation was based then, as now, on repentance and faith.

Since they were under the law animal sacrifice was expected. It was the norm there would be no call to repeat what everyone accepted, expected and considered the norm.

[titus213]

Since they were under the law animal sacrifice was expected. It was the norm there would be no call to repeat what everyone accepted, expected and considered the norm

You ignore the point of the Psalm, which is that what you have just said is actually untrue. The Psalm reminds us that animal sacrifice was NOT "expected and considered the norm" apart from something else first, something else which had priority. Being "under the law" did not change the fact that God did not need or care about animal sacrifices except as they reflected the prior committment of the heart to him.

[Justaned]

Since they were under the law animal sacrifice was expected. It was the norm there would be no call to repeat what everyone accepted, expected and considered the norm

You ignore the point of the Psalm, which is that what you have just said is actually untrue. The Psalm reminds us that animal sacrifice was NOT "expected and considered the norm" apart from something else first, something else which had priority. Being "under the law" did not change the fact that God did not need or care about animal sacrifices except as they reflected the prior committment of the heart to him.

Again I think you confuse righteousness with Salvation, with a love for God.
A Love for God is the first and great commandment in the both the Old and New Testament. If you didn't have that love everything else was chaff in the wind.

Sinlessness can't be realized by man, the penalty of sin is death, man that died before Christ could be righeous but death still had a claim to him. Thus he went to Hades. It wasn't until Christ lead all those held captive in Abraham's bosom into eternal life in heaven did they have Salvation from the sin that entered the world.

[Justaned]

Once again I remind you if man could do with faith or righteoueness what Christ did on the cross then scripture lies and Christ's death was in vain.

You can assert they trusted in the New Covenant but that covenant did not exist until the testor died.

Death that had a hold on them did not accept any future IOU's death had to be defeated before anyone could be saved from death.

The whole of the book of Hebrew explains why the New Testament is so much better than the Old Testament.

Perhaps we need to define salvation. In the Old Testament salvation is often referred to as being saved from physical enemies, from physical plights and etc. Salvation that we are talking about is salvation from death and it took the defeat of death for that to be realized by Old and New Testament saints.

It wasn't accomplished by faith nor by trust but only by the death of Jesus Christ. So in that sense no Old Testament saint was yet saved from the wages of Sin DEATH until JESUS' death on the cross.

[titus213]

If you define salvation as narrowly as you do, then what you say may have some validity.

However, I prefer to define salvation as the B-I-B-L-E does: it is eternal life.

And what is eternal life? It is not escape from death, but as defined by Jesus himself: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17.3). It is not something that begins at death, but a relationship to God which begins here and now. And Jesus said that whoever believed on him had eternal life.

The OT saints believed on Jesus, however dimly they were able to apprehend the complete picture of what God revealed to them. Their understanding was incomplete, to be sure; but it was not a false understanding because God did not lie to them in what he did reveal. From the get-go, God explained that for those who believed "I will be their God and they shall be my people" (Gen 17.7) . . . which is the promise of eternal life and is repeated at the end of the Bible in Rev. 21.3.

And the promise of the new testament / covenant was made by Jeremiah to Israel, so yes I certainly do believe they had some awareness of a new covenant coming, and that promise became part of what their faith was in as they awaited the arrival of their Redeemer.

So were they saved even before the arrival of Jesus? Absolutely! Because as Jesus said himself, no one could come to the Father except through him. It's interesting to read Paul's defense when he was brought before Agrippa in Acts 26; he doesn't claim to be representing a new thing which has knocked out the hope of the OT saints . . . just the opposite is the case. He claims to be judged for the very hope of the promise made by God to the patriarchs. It is that hope, looking forward to it, which saved the Old Testament man or woman. It is that same hope, looking back at it, which saves you and me.

[Justaned]

If you define salvation as narrowly as you do, then what you say may have some validity.

However, I prefer to define salvation as the B-I-B-L-E does: it is eternal life.

And what is eternal life? It is not escape from death, but as defined by Jesus himself: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17.3). It is not something that begins at death, but a relationship to God which begins here and now. And Jesus said that whoever believed on him had eternal life.

The OT saints believed on Jesus, however dimly they were able to apprehend the complete picture of what God revealed to them. Their understanding was incomplete, to be sure; but it was not a false understanding because God did not lie to them in what he did reveal. From the get-go, God explained that for those who believed "I will be their God and they shall be my people" (Gen 17.7) . . . which is the promise of eternal life and is repeated at the end of the Bible in Rev. 21.3.

And the promise of the new testament / covenant was made by Jeremiah to Israel, so yes I certainly do believe they had some awareness of a new covenant coming, and that promise became part of what their faith was in as they awaited the arrival of their Redeemer.

So were they saved even before the arrival of Jesus? Absolutely! Because as Jesus said himself, no one could come to the Father except through him. It's interesting to read Paul's defense when he was brought before Agrippa in Acts 26; he doesn't claim to be representing a new thing which has knocked out the hope of the OT saints . . . just the opposite is the case. He claims to be judged for the very hope of the promise made by God to the patriarchs. It is that hope, looking forward to it, which saved the Old Testament man or woman. It is that same hope, looking back at it, which saves you and me.

You keep jumbling words together. When we come to Christ at the beginning of our salvation we know next to nothing about God. Oh we know what the preacher has told us but it is not until we spend time alone in our prayer closet that we begin to know God. This step is missed by many many Christians. Yet we are promised eternal life at the time we make Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Many of the Old Testament saints were ahead of us in knowing God but they still did not have salvation because death had not yet been defeated. Thus they were held captive in Hades until Christ freed them leading them home to eternal life. Did they understand the prophecy of Jeremiah yes I think they did but only to the point of hope. Their trust in God allowed them to have hope in things not yet seen, that is faith but that faith is not what saved them. What saved them from eternal death was Jesus Christ. They were made participants in the New Covenant while held captivity because of this trust in God but it took Jesus Christ to cut the cords of law from them(death).

[titus213]

The personal testimony of Isaiah contradicts what you say:

I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. (Isaiah 61.10)

The personal testimony of David contradicts what you say:

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. (Psalm 51.12)

as do many, many, many other verses in the Old Testament.

It is as plain as the Bible can make it that people then were in actual fact saved, and that they were saved by Christ. The whole point of their cermonial actions was a foreshadowing of the person and work of Jesus (Col 2.17) and they became a means by which faith in the coming Savior could be exhibited prior to his incarnation. What really saved them was the blood of Christ which was yet to be shed, and God made known to them in their own times these sacrifices depicted his eternal plan of redemption. Moses and his buddies, for example, understood that the construction of the Tabernacle had to precisely follow the revealed heavenly pattern. God was providing acted predictions of Calvary in the whole sacrificial system.

No one of any dispensation could enjoy fellowship with God without being saved. Clearly, OT saints did enjoy such fellowship.

[Justaned]

The personal testimony of Isaiah contradicts what you say:

I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. (Isaiah 61.10)

The personal testimony of David contradicts what you say:

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit. (Psalm 51.12)

as do many, many, many other verses in the Old Testament.

It is as plain as the Bible can make it that people then were in actual fact saved, and that they were saved by Christ. The whole point of their cermonial actions was a foreshadowing of the person and work of Jesus (Col 2.17) and they became a means by which faith in the coming Savior could be exhibited prior to his incarnation. What really saved them was the blood of Christ which was yet to be shed, and God made known to them in their own times these sacrifices depicted his eternal plan of redemption. Moses and his buddies, for example, understood that the construction of the Tabernacle had to precisely follow the revealed heavenly pattern. God was providing acted predictions of Calvary in the whole sacrificial system.

No one of any dispensation could enjoy fellowship with God without being saved. Clearly, OT saints did enjoy such fellowship.

In these quotes are they talking spiritual salvation or physical salvation?
When read in context they are speaking of physical salvation.

The concept of spiritual salvation was never fully realized by Old Testament saints. This very fact is proven by the responses Nicodemus gave to Jesus. If anyone was going to understand salvation it would be religious leader charges with teaching the Law. Even the disciples were lost in their understanding of eternal salvation as seen in the questions they asked Jesus on the subject.

Old Testament saints basically understood the need to be rigtheous and pure before the Lord. It is said they even questioned the ritual reliability of that happening thus the reason for the pomegranates sewn into their robes and the rope tied to their ankle.

They showed obedience to God which was accounted them as being rigtheous, they were saved physically from many things that sought their lives but ever lasting spiritual salvation was not something they expected would occur until the Messiah. That is why they always sought the Messiah.

You say

No one of any dispensation could enjoy fellowship with God without being saved. Clearly, OT saints did enjoy such fellowship

That is not correct they had to be sanctified, made pure. The High Priest did it by ritual before entering the Holy of Holies. Others did it by righteous living, right heart and having sins atoned by sacrifice.

You keep insisting that it is work of man (faith and righteousness) rather than the work of the cross that secures salvation.

[titus213]

You keep insisting that it is work of man (faith and righteousness) rather than the work of the cross that secures salvation

Actually, I keep insisting just the opposite:

"It is as plain as the Bible can make it that people then were in actual fact saved, and that they were saved by Christ. The whole point of their cermonial actions was a foreshadowing of the person and work of Jesus (Col 2.17) and they became a means by which faith in the coming Savior could be exhibited prior to his incarnation. What really saved them was the blood of Christ which was yet to be shed . . ."