Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ HE WHO HINDERS

[titus213]

How is the prevailing of the Little Horn different from the persecution of the Early Church and the martyrdoms of that time?

Because the persecution and martyrdom which happened in the Early Church failed . . . the Church actually blossomed and grew despite the efforts of Satan to stop it. He lost the war.
In Daniel's vision, the war is being won by the Little Horn . . . until the Ancient of Days comes and sets things right.

[Justaned]

Where in scripture do you see it tell us that many will be saved during the tribulation that occurred after the church is caught up to meet the Lord.

Daniel saw the Little Horn warring against the saints, and prevailing (Dan 7.21). These saints cannot be part of the Church, because Jesus promised the gates of hell could not prevail against the Church.

I think you are really really reaching on this one and I won't even bother to qualify it by refuting it.

In Rev. 5.9-11 John saw the souls of those who had been martyred for their stand with Christ when the 5th seal was opened, and was told there were more believers who would be martyred still to come (this assumes the Seals are opened after the rapture of the Church).

You are right you have to assume that this takes place after a rapture. But let us not assume. Okay?

In Rev. 7 there are the two pictures of saved people: the numbered group of Jews who have become "servants of our God", and the innumerable Gentiles who "have come out of the great tribulation".

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

In Rev. 12 there are Jews who are described as those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". They apparently were not part of the 144,000 Jews mentioned in chapter 7, but turned to Christ as the Antichrist begins his final moves against Israel.

Are these not the Jews that were saved since creation? If not how do you know?

In Rev. 15 there is a picture of those who have gotten victory over the Beast and his efforts to make them take his mark.

First we don't know what the mark is, perhaps it is the acceptance of the world which has captured many in this day and age. But again there is no mention of this in relation to a rapture.

I believe that Acts 2.16-21 teaches a future outpouring of the Holy Spirit (of which His outpouring on the Day of Pentecost was a preview). Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, with the full and final fulfillment awaiting "the great and notable Day of the Lord". Peter recognized that the "last days" which the Jews had anticipated as the time of their Messiah had obviously begun since he saw the evidence of the Spirit all around him; but he also knew the "last days" were still to have an ending point. So he does not say "this fulfills Jeremiah's prophecy", but instead says "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". I think he deals with the issue of the passing of time as the "last days" stretch on and on in his letters later in the New Testament.

Again this is a real stretch and there is no timeframe other than the one you add, no mention of a rapture, no mention of a 7 year tribulation no mention of anything other than you believe it is only a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. What if it was continuing prophecy that Jews the come to Christ are fulfilling.

You have provided nothing that says there will be a 7 year tribulation that the church will be raptured before and that many will be saved in. These are all assumptions made, that while they sound good may be very far off base.

The only thing we are totally assured of is Christ's return. Everything else could and may well have been fulfilled already.

[Justaned]

How is the prevailing of the Little Horn different from the persecution of the Early Church and the martyrdoms of that time?

Because the persecution and martyrdom which happened in the Early Church failed . . . the Church actually blossomed and grew despite the efforts of Satan to stop it. He lost the war.
In Daniel's vision, the war is being won by the Little Horn . . . until the Ancient of Days comes and sets things right.

Or is this Little Horn the beginning of Islam that has even overpowered the 7 churchs of Revelation?

[titus213]

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

[Ironman]

"Where in scripture do you see it tell us that many will be saved during the tribulation that occurred after the church is caught up to meet the Lord."

.

It is stated in Rev. 14:9-12 that every person without exception who takes the mark of the beast and worships him will be damned to eternal Hell. If every person on Earth must either take the mark of the beast and worship the Antichrist or be killed, as taught by many, and if everyone who does take it is confined eternally to Hell when Christ comes, as stated in Rev. 14:9-11, who then will be left on Earth for Christ and the righteous resurrected saints to reign over in the Millennium and forever? It is certain according to Psalms 2; Isa. 2:2-4; 9:6, 7; Zech. 14:16-21; Dan. 2:44; 7:13, 14, 18, 27; 12:12, 13; Rev. 1:4-6; 2:26, 27; 5:10; 11:15; 20:1-10 and many other scriptures that all nations will be ruled by Christ and the saints forever, so if all who do not take the mark are to be killed by the Antichrist, or otherwise be sent to Hell by Christ if they do, from where are these nations to come that will populate the Earth whenChrist comes to reign?
The only conclusion si that the Antichrist will be limited in his power over only a part of the Earth and that there will be plenty of people who will not be under him and who will not take the mark of the beast and worship him. It is these people who will be left here for Christ and the saints to reign over.

GPFM page 939, 12.

[Justaned]

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Is God's wrath the 7 years of tribulation or the actual destruction of this world?There is nothing in scripture to suggest a 7 year Trib.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

No scripture teaches that the tribulation only being after the rapture. NONE!

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

There is no mention of the rapture only of the Jewish flight out of Jerusalem when the Roman came to blockcade it.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

You say this but what do you base it on? I imagine if you have a few burning tires around your body you would think different. Or if you saw your wife raped and daugthers sold into sexual slavery. Or had to watch wild animals tearing to piece your sons and daugthers after then had been totally humiliated and abused you might say something different. Or how about you body along with your wife and kids being wrapped in animal skins then covered with pitch and hung on a pole and set afire to light the emperor's garden. I think you might consider that intense suffering.
You talk as you do because you live in the US and have never felt will intense suffering because you are Christian. But millions of other Christians have lived and died horrible and terrible deaths because of their beliefs.

The 7 year tribulation story only sells in the US the rest of the world says we are seeing most of this today. Sell your Eschatology in the Phillipines where they have seen thousands killed by volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tusamais. Experienced the horror of watching one of their limbs hacked off with a dull machete and last saw their dear sweet daugther being dragged off to be used as a sex toy until she is so unappealing people will then find enjoyment by watching her be tortured and killed. Intense Christians in many third world nations are living life so intense you would faint.

[branham1965]

that is a fascinating though gutting post REVED.
you know i heard a once close friend of mine preach on Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord....
in his sermon i was astounded how much the EARLY CHURCH SUFFERED!!!!! WE ARE SO SELFISH WE THINK EVERY WORD IS FOR US!!!!HE SHOWED HOW MANY THINGS JESUS SAID WERE TO THE EARLY DISCIPLES TOO.TOO.

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Is God's wrath the 7 years of tribulation or the actual destruction of this world?There is nothing in scripture to suggest a 7 year Trib.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

No scripture teaches that the tribulation only being after the rapture. NONE!

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

There is no mention of the rapture only of the Jewish flight out of Jerusalem when the Roman came to blockcade it.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

You say this but what do you base it on? I imagine if you have a few burning tires around your body you would think different. Or if you saw your wife raped and daugthers sold into sexual slavery. Or had to watch wild animals tearing to piece your sons and daugthers after then had been totally humiliated and abused you might say something different. Or how about you body along with your wife and kids being wrapped in animal skins then covered with pitch and hung on a pole and set afire to light the emperor's garden. I think you might consider that intense suffering.
You talk as you do because you live in the US and have never felt will intense suffering because you are Christian. But millions of other Christians have lived and died horrible and terrible deaths because of their beliefs.

The 7 year tribulation story only sells in the US the rest of the world says we are seeing most of this today. Sell your Eschatology in the Phillipines where they have seen thousands killed by volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tusamais. Experienced the horror of watching one of their limbs hacked off with a dull machete and last saw their dear sweet daugther being dragged off to be used as a sex toy until she is so unappealing people will then find enjoyment by watching her be tortured and killed. Intense Christians in many third world nations are living life so intense you would faint.

[branham1965]

DOLPH ,
TRY NOT TO HATE ME MORE THAN YOU DO FOR SAYING THIS...BUT WHY IS IT YOU and many many others here and who left like fraidy cats CANNOT STAND TO HEAR OR SEE AN ALTERNATE VIEWPOINT ON ANYTHING===LET ALONE ONE OF THE MOST COMPLICATED MOST HARD TO UNDERSTAND PARTS OF THE BIBLE. ===== ESCHATOLOGY.

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Is God's wrath the 7 years of tribulation or the actual destruction of this world?There is nothing in scripture to suggest a 7 year Trib.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

No scripture teaches that the tribulation only being after the rapture. NONE!

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

There is no mention of the rapture only of the Jewish flight out of Jerusalem when the Roman came to blockcade it.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

You say this but what do you base it on? I imagine if you have a few burning tires around your body you would think different. Or if you saw your wife raped and daugthers sold into sexual slavery. Or had to watch wild animals tearing to piece your sons and daugthers after then had been totally humiliated and abused you might say something different. Or how about you body along with your wife and kids being wrapped in animal skins then covered with pitch and hung on a pole and set afire to light the emperor's garden. I think you might consider that intense suffering.
You talk as you do because you live in the US and have never felt will intense suffering because you are Christian. But millions of other Christians have lived and died horrible and terrible deaths because of their beliefs.

The 7 year tribulation story only sells in the US the rest of the world says we are seeing most of this today. Sell your Eschatology in the Phillipines where they have seen thousands killed by volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tusamais. Experienced the horror of watching one of their limbs hacked off with a dull machete and last saw their dear sweet daugther being dragged off to be used as a sex toy until she is so unappealing people will then find enjoyment by watching her be tortured and killed. Intense Christians in many third world nations are living life so intense you would faint.

When people make remarks like these one wonders who sent them to this board.

Only yesterday did I make an airtight case for the pretrib rapture based on one scripture, 2Thes. 2:7-8, proving that the Church would be taken out of the way before the A/C was revealed.

Ed, who are you working for?[/quote]

[scottae316]

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Is God's wrath the 7 years of tribulation or the actual destruction of this world?There is nothing in scripture to suggest a 7 year Trib.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

No scripture teaches that the tribulation only being after the rapture. NONE!

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

There is no mention of the rapture only of the Jewish flight out of Jerusalem when the Roman came to blockcade it.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

You say this but what do you base it on? I imagine if you have a few burning tires around your body you would think different. Or if you saw your wife raped and daugthers sold into sexual slavery. Or had to watch wild animals tearing to piece your sons and daugthers after then had been totally humiliated and abused you might say something different. Or how about you body along with your wife and kids being wrapped in animal skins then covered with pitch and hung on a pole and set afire to light the emperor's garden. I think you might consider that intense suffering.
You talk as you do because you live in the US and have never felt will intense suffering because you are Christian. But millions of other Christians have lived and died horrible and terrible deaths because of their beliefs.

The 7 year tribulation story only sells in the US the rest of the world says we are seeing most of this today. Sell your Eschatology in the Phillipines where they have seen thousands killed by volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tusamais. Experienced the horror of watching one of their limbs hacked off with a dull machete and last saw their dear sweet daugther being dragged off to be used as a sex toy until she is so unappealing people will then find enjoyment by watching her be tortured and killed. Intense Christians in many third world nations are living life so intense you would faint.

When people make remarks like these one wonders who sent them to this board.

Only yesterday did I make an airtight case for the pretrib rapture based on one scripture, 2Thes. 2:7-8, proving that the Church would be taken out of the way before the A/C was revealed.

Ed, who are you working for?

Well, it must not be as airtight as you think or else you would have convinced Ed. As for your last question, you are totally out of line,

[scottae316]

Billy, they are not afraid, they are convinced they are right. The problem is that they are so sure that if you do not see it there way, you are wrong or a fool. The only problem with this thinking is that closes you to hearing what others who are believers interpret a passage to say. Both have valid points, both have problems, but unless one is willing to listen then division remains. Good question Billy.

DOLPH ,
TRY NOT TO HATE ME MORE THAN YOU DO FOR SAYING THIS...BUT WHY IS IT YOU and many many others here and who left like fraidy cats CANNOT STAND TO HEAR OR SEE AN ALTERNATE VIEWPOINT ON ANYTHING===LET ALONE ONE OF THE MOST COMPLICATED MOST HARD TO UNDERSTAND PARTS OF THE BIBLE. ===== ESCHATOLOGY.

I am leaving the computer now and will be away from Internet access for several days, so I only have time to reply to one of your comments:

How do you know this isn't talking of the Tribulation Jesus spoke about?Matthew 24:21-22 (NASB)
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
John 16:33 (NASB)
33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

And there is no mention of rapture preceding this event.

Actually, since this event is the outpouring of God's wrath we can know the rapture will have already taken place, as taught by Paul in 1 Thess. 5 when he assures Christians they are not appointed to wrath.

Is God's wrath the 7 years of tribulation or the actual destruction of this world?There is nothing in scripture to suggest a 7 year Trib.

Since other Scriptures teach that the tribulation only begins AFTER the rapture, I would not expect Jesus to mention the rapture in this teaching in Matthew 24 which deals ONLY with the tribulation period AFTER the rapture has already taken place. The entire chapter is devoted to the future time of tribulation, as the NKJV brings out clearly. Jesus also uses the phrase which every Jew recognized as the time of trouble which would hit the world before the Messiah arrived: "the beginning of birth pains" ("beginning of sorrows") -- a phrase Paul also picks up on in his imagery in 1 Thess. 5.

No scripture teaches that the tribulation only being after the rapture. NONE!

Where Jesus does mention the rapture is in Luke 21, where Luke records another section of teaching not mentioned by Matthew or Mark. Jesus talks about the hope of the believer to ESCAPE (not merely endure) the terrible events He has described as happening before His return.

There is no mention of the rapture only of the Jewish flight out of Jerusalem when the Roman came to blockcade it.

John 16:33 has no relevance to the discussion; there is no comparison between the general tribulation which Christians have always had to endure in the world, and the future period of unprecedented and intense suffering yet in store for the world, according to Jesus' own description of it.

You say this but what do you base it on? I imagine if you have a few burning tires around your body you would think different. Or if you saw your wife raped and daugthers sold into sexual slavery. Or had to watch wild animals tearing to piece your sons and daugthers after then had been totally humiliated and abused you might say something different. Or how about you body along with your wife and kids being wrapped in animal skins then covered with pitch and hung on a pole and set afire to light the emperor's garden. I think you might consider that intense suffering.
You talk as you do because you live in the US and have never felt will intense suffering because you are Christian. But millions of other Christians have lived and died horrible and terrible deaths because of their beliefs.

The 7 year tribulation story only sells in the US the rest of the world says we are seeing most of this today. Sell your Eschatology in the Phillipines where they have seen thousands killed by volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tusamais. Experienced the horror of watching one of their limbs hacked off with a dull machete and last saw their dear sweet daugther being dragged off to be used as a sex toy until she is so unappealing people will then find enjoyment by watching her be tortured and killed. Intense Christians in many third world nations are living life so intense you would faint.

When people make remarks like these one wonders who sent them to this board.

Only yesterday did I make an airtight case for the pretrib rapture based on one scripture, 2Thes. 2:7-8, proving that the Church would be taken out of the way before the A/C was revealed.

Ed, who are you working for?

[/quote]