Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Days of Noah and the hyper-grace movement!

[luchnia]

I think this passage about says all that is needed to be said on the subject!

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 1:16 (AMP) 16 They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind.

Translation? If you are going to the strip clubs and to motel 6 to commit adultery - then of course you are NOT saved, and if you ever were saved... you by your actions have lost it.

AND based on this Scripture I would say that we CAN keep ourselves saved - by NOT committing death penalty sins!

Titus 1:15 is spot on.

This might be slightly off track from the original post, but one text that always set me straight quickly in this area is "awake to righteousness and sin not." Think about how can a person even for one second not know that they are serving God or satan? According to the scripture we find if you are in sin, God is not your master and the Spirit is not guiding you. I find this a most simple of subjects. Indeed can we serve the two masters? If so, at the same time? If so, Jesus may have changed His tune to, It is ok to serve God and mammon.

If it is possible for satan to work in one that is born again then my entire belief system would have to change. Free from sin or alive to sin? Can it be both? The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death....the Spirit is life because of righteousness...we should not serve sin...reckon yourselves dead indeed unto sin...whoever is born of God DOTH NOT COMMIT sin...and so on it goes.

I should have enough sense to know that if I serve sin, I am free from righteousness and not under God any longer. If I am born of God, I sinneth not and I have definitely crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. If the Spirit of God dwells in me, then I am His. If not, then I am none of His.

I cannot think of one time in my life where I sinned that I did not know who I was serving. I knew deep down in my core being that I was not serving God. We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world. Let no man think that he can sin and it is of God. How many sins does it take to damn a man's soul?

A saved person has quit the sin business. I so loathe sinning-saint theology. In thirty years of study, I still cannot find any such thing taught in God's word.

[davido]

I don't really make a doctrinal statement, not that it is not correct, but hyper grace, grace, forgiveness based on lip service repentance, and all the definations, once saved, always saved, on and on.
I read the bible 40 years.
1 Peter 4:19 Peter writes under the direction of The Holy Spirit (paraphrasing) If we are scarsely saved, how about the others....And how about the others that quote John 3:16.
a lot of people go to church and take the sacrament as just a bunch of words one says. They go church maybe every week, and they have a bible and when they went something
they ask, but they do not obey God at all. Then comes if we're under the law. Well, no, bible says Jesus came to abolish the law, however grace alwayshangs on the law.
During the days of Noah and the great deluge about 2500BC Noah's brothers, cousins perished. Today, we whom love God with all our heart and check with the word and The Spirit
before we do anything, to do God's will, not our own. We have so many in the congregation I call hyprcrites, children of the devil, converned witht the outward appearance and
did the Pharacies and Saducees and they control the church don't they? I rather suppose if David lived today having had Urriah killed, he would be an outcast, but David repented
really. You have to watch people their behavious, their actions and then you know if they''re worldly. I think most churches probably may well have zero people led of the Spirit.
Thats been my experience having been active in the church as were my parents and grandpartents. Its like we're running a business on modern business principles but no one
seeks God. So, I read all the bible, and all the bible says few will make it, just as in the days of Noah. Over and over the path is narrow, narrow and what proves that
is 1 Peter 4.19. As a computer programmer and analyst I didn't know where to set the line until I read 1 Peter 4:19, and there even Peter scarcely make it!!!!! For an analyst
that really makes the formula of the numbers simple. God having made angels, then made man, to weed out those whom would in heaven cheat, steal, kill, covet, move their
neighbors bountry. God refines us like silver on earth, but if we burn our consciences, so be it. God is a gentlemen and lets man go his own way. I never read in the bible
that God is going to change our character in heaven. So, if we're lukewarm here, steal a little, put bad construction on others, and the like, then there can be no room
for in heaven we don't have that. It is that simple. So term it you want, but read every verse in the bible and the evil will be recompensed, not given glory.
Those whom really love God will have a crown and a robe, but those whom fake their Christianity just won't work in heaven unless God becomes a dictator
and forces them to do right and then what was the sensce of creating Adam in the first place. No God is keeping the good fruit the truly, tearfully repentand like David,
and tossing the rest in the fire. Reakkt thats the only purpose for Adam and our existance here is to seperate glorified saints, obedience and disobcenience,
idolators from those whom really are in love with God. I don't like to judge others, but I read ever scripture and in every scripture all thru the bible theres no
escape clause for a fake.Every soldier knows if he is will to give his life for a cause, and we should know too our obedience to God, and the sincereity of out
repentence. In the end God is the judge, but too, God cannot lie. So, I have to believe the wicked will be punished, cause God says so, and if one truly
repents thats God call. I only concentrate on myself as the word dictates and that's it. I sould know if my heart in genuine, if my love is genuine, that my
feet don't run to cause mischef, and if I can honestly adhere to every scripture. So many folks don't even read the bible, and they think all is okay, but for me thats not going to work.

[luchnia]

So many folks don't even read the bible, and they think all is okay, but for me thats not going to work.

I often wonder about this too. Just what is acceptable? Just how narrow is that gate for those that are trying to enter in? I think sometimes we make light of this - maybe just because we fear that path is much narrower than we want to believe. At times I am perplexed about that path and wonder myself just how far I need to go to be on that path? Just what is required of forsaking all? Do we really love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength?

There are those that spend many hours in God's word and yet others that don't have the time for it. They say, "I am not interested in that God stuff, but I am a Christian" and then they go on believing the junk the world throws their way never desiring anything more. They believe there is a God, but that is about it. Amazing when you ponder it.

Does the responsibility of those that don't care much fall on those of us that do spend time with God and His word? I am reminded of how men of God, like Daniel, prayed to God and basically said, forgive us Lord for we as a people need help and bless our land.

[davido]

Eternal life is a big deal, really. Here's a deal that a real deal. Not taking it with all our hearts says something.
If someone offered you a new car for 1 penny, there would be lines for it, but to live millions of centuries
as opposed to being terminated, that too demands a lot of respect. Problem is apathy, associated with the heathen,
people don't get excited to read to carefully obey the instructions. And then they're like warm, on the fence and
when life demands they cheat, run down coworkers, take credit for others, or let hate rule like the heathen that
rage without truth, then they're depraved. Many are depraved, and thats why we are here aren't we? Isn't that
right? If God was going to open the gates to eveyone then there was no purpose to Adam or creating the human.
We\re here to test our hearts a refining of silver. You don't refine silver without tests, without tempting to do evil
to get you way, to get ahead. Sadly so many people go to work and mock Christian, they love vanity, lying,
and the host of tircks and really do you want that person living next to you in heaven. I think not and I think
they won't be there, cause God's not lying and Gods not giving the conditions only to not honor them.
God is like sword, exacting and he means exactly what He says, and every word of God is His will and will prevail.

[luchnia]

Sadly so many people go to work and mock Christian, they love vanity, lying, and the host of tircks and really do you want that person living next to you in heaven. I think not and I think
they won't be there, cause God's not lying and Gods not giving the conditions only to not honor them.

You spurred some thoughts and things that I had put on the back burner for the past few years. Very real in my work world is co-workers and bosses/leaders that "play the game" so-to-state. In other words they are the little soldiers that do exactly what the puppet-masters tell them and compromise that which is right - all the while acting like they are doing what is right knowing in their hearts they did not do what is right.

They are well taught of the world by all their self-help books and social teachers. This is the corporate USA social order. I work in that corporate world and it saddens me that men won't stand for integrity and righteousness because fear and ignorance has them bound and blind.

The leaders are like car salesmen spouting off fluff to keep the puppets in line. You can coat chicken dung with piles of icing yet once the icing is gone it is still chicken dung underneath. It is rare to find the God kind of sincerity and integrity in the business world. When you do see righteousness you stand amazed by it and it is usually short-lived.

Here is another thought. How many ministers are in the pulpits "entertaining" folks today and are not approved unto God to handle His Word rightly? The thought is mind-boggling.

[Fellowship]

I was asked like some to respond so reluctantly I will, not that I have any individual struggles with anyone here just general struggles with theological debate that always seem to dominate the conversations with many trying to flex their biblical mussels.

Because of my opening statement let me give a little background. Jesus saved me and baptized me with the H.S. In 1969 I am still trying to live a "spirit filled" life on a day by day experience but the truth is some days I am just a man saved by the grace of Father God, graduate in theology from a Bible College that truly embraced the H. S. Baptized, taught in the school, been a Elder, Co paster, senior paster and so on, married for 44 yrs. 2 kids one is a medical Dr. Bottom line is I have spent my life loving Father God, following the Lord and studying the bible.

All that being said lets talk. This post sounds like the old debate of Calvinism vs Arminianism with a contemporary twist, and a greater swing from the ultra liberal which will always get a "raise the flag" from the holiness right and the responses seem to be oh so predictable.

Great questions of "Why Father" must go before great answers. Questions like

Why did you choose 12 drop outs from rabbinical school to be apostles?
Why did the Jewish scholars with all there studying become so blind and ignorant that they missed Jesus standing in front of them raising the dead???
Why did Father put the Jews who couldn't even get along with each other together with totally pagan Gentiles fresh out of the world in One Body the Church?
Why does our local church look and smell so different than what the early church did?

Jesus said we must begin our walk from our inside being changed first the then walking it out. Every other attempt produces wood, hay & stubble. Our heart must first be right before we can really learn anything from Father. Father told his perfect hearted son Jesus choose these 12 nobodies they will do better then the know it all scholars. Think about it. If we study our brains out with out the Spirit guiding us we will no better than the Jewish theologians.
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
I am saying this. "We Must Have The Heart Of Father To Know What Father Is Really Saying In The Scriptures". If we don't we will come up with our "special blend" of theology based on our either liberal or conservative views of the bible.

God talks to different groups of people with different attributes of his personality being dominant, how he talked to a sinner, or a hypocrite is different than a lost seeker of truth and how he talks and treats us is totally different than all others. The bible, for us, is a special book for his family not points of law in a court case. Matt 13:10-17
Father talks and treats us like his sons, he loves us and will never ever forsake us even when we stumble around. Yes we can leave him or Divorcé him if we choose, we do have a free will, but for us "his adopted sons, the Apple of Fathers eye we are family"
It's all about a family relationship not a legal contractual agreement among two parties. We've changed a covenant into a contract. We've changed a family into two legal parties. Father made a way to get around his justice to offer forgiveness if we repent. It's about restoration of our relationship, this is a family thing.

He wants us to be like him, by covering our family and the church with our loving grace even like he covers us. That's why Father thought nothing about putting the Jews and the Gentiles in one Church not 2 Churches. Now a days we have very high Christian divorces rate and church splits all the time. Why??? Because we have become more like Pharisee Judger than like Jesus - loving Fathers doing everything he can to find a way to love and receive a flawed human son. We've to buzzy swallowing our camels (over emphasis in theology) then to fulfill the first two commandments (Matt 22:34-40 And Luke 10:25-37 read the whole thing). Again the big Why??? Because it is much easier to study the bible then to lay down our lives for a friend. Many of our christian leaders have separated them selves as best they can from their flock. Why? Because dealing with people is a dirty business to be in, you got to love them more then your own self preservation pure Christianity will kill you. Father we need more Grace. Why has so many of our top, successful pastors fallen when they started off so blamelessly? Could it be their calling became a profession, could it be they stopped looking like the 12 and started looking like the Sanhedrin. Could it be they stopped acting like a Father and started acting like a Dr. or a Loyal, a Politician, a Lawyer or maybe a C.E.O.
1 Cor 2:1-5

Well time to stop before I upset some of the brothers, I really don't have enough relationship with you guys to talk so frankly from my heart about these fundamental and yet radically different orthodox views.


FellowShip.

[luchnia]

Very enlightening post, there Fellowship. I want to take some time to peruse it.

[davido]

luchnia

We need not compare ourselves to how others regard eternal life, for we most will fall away from the faith and the bible says that.

Already we have an OPINION His view is extremely narrow.
and yet another Yes, that is a really NARROW view. I would hate to write that article because I may be excluding myself from eternal life!

See you want already to form a "good ole boys" club that everyones will make it.

Actually these are not my views, I read the bible 40 years, and that GOD's view...that what the word says over and over and over.
This conversation no doubt Noah during his 200 years of preaching had not ONE whom heeded his word did he? No... not one and think
Methusella was about 900 years old during the great flood.

Already you're talking yourself into apathy making God view obsolete.

We need to read the word of God and the word of God becomes a part of us and
we know the truth, for we are givern a unction of the The Spirit.

Am I worred...Absolutely not, becasue the I know the word and I do not use opinions by men.
It is pulling teeth for the discussion board to simply agree with God on anything and doesn't
that sound a bit off balance. When you stand before God, it will be thumbs up or down and theres
no more chancres. If you love God, not just trying to cheat on the exam to get by, and place
him actually FIRST above youir own judgement, your own will, He will surely communicate
to you your obedience, adherance. But from your response you're on the defensive areen't you
discreditsing not my view but God total word. You can't just pick one verse on a subject and fly
with it and on this topic you can actually get a yellow line when God's word speaks about salvation,
about the unrepentant, those whom ride the middle line and mankind that diliberate use their feet
to seek malic, lie, steal, killo, covet they won't be in heaven, cause not I, but God says so.
If you yellow line all the verses too about the righteous vs the unrighteous God canot be taken
lightly. I would prefer that in every issue I obey the word, and then I have the witness of the Comforter
and I am sure, alaready in love with God, I'll spend eternity with him.
It is mans carnal nature to water down the word of God and thats the conclusion of your responce.
Primarily I cannot write anything that God did not say.
If God said it is not my view. However people will change, take away from Gods word and I
don't want to be in their crowd. You see if you come a family that reads their bible every day,
all this is common knowledge, but to be hit with the truth if you're from a supposed Christian church
that likes the warm and fuzzies of the sacraments, are judgemental of people trying to come to
Christ, but you find them not good enough, then just read Jesus's state4ments to the Pharasies and Saducees.
Isn't that really what what church people are doing>
You see this earth, the human race of so may beautiful people are here briefly, and God spent a whole lot
of money and crating on these people for ONE reason that they be tested unlike the angels whom were not.
Your premise we're all going thru the narrow gate, I quote at least 4 verses that God says this, then you're taking
the deal of eterity and making it a laughing matter. I would imaging those in the days of Noah in their eyes
believd and qualified, but really less then 10 out of 20 million made it. So, you think we're better than the people
during Noahs time and the bible says in the last days it will be as in the days of Noah. This argument is impossible
to refute, and I could never take and say there is no wide date to hell could I. If you know you bible you really
must really love God with ALL your heart and you must obey HIM in all He says,. Thats the deal. I you want to
change the deal to the false security of the days of Noah, you're on your own. But this is much better than
winning a billion dollar lottery and he wants your life dedicataed to Him. Men will make up what their carnal desries
what and thats why God make the human race, casue He wants good fruilt. YOu'll fiund no where in scripture
where God saves the bad fruit. No that those going thru the wide gate are going to be with Him. All that is simply
not anything in the bible and you read and find hundred and hundres of scripture that all logically tight and thats
what GOD says. So, go your way and excure yourself, ally yourself with people who say ya all come, but then
when you stand before God, these crownies won't be judging you.


.

[Michael Evans]

The best way I can comment on this issue is to direct all interested believers to the following Rick Renner Home Group Bible Lessons in which he addresses the errors involved in this teaching:








I suppport Rick's ministry in Russia. I believe he is one of the most balanced and anointed teachers of the Word of God I have ever heard.
He used to be a member of Bob Yandian's Grace Fellowship church which I attended while I was a student at Rhema. Pastor Bob is also a wonderful teacher of the scriptures. Rick makes the point in this lesson that outward success (ie. mega-size church congregations, successful book sales, a popular TV ministry etc) does not guarantee accurate doctrine.

[Watchman2013]

I was also asked to comment on this subject. I was saved watching Paul and Jan Crouch on TBN and going forward to receive salvation at a Hagen-Copeland crusade 36 years ago and have noticed how TBN has embraced the ultra faith message. I was a word-faith man from the start but always thought it was unbalanced and gave too little importance to salvation and making Jesus Lord of our lives. I remember Copeland mocking the Baptists for preaching salvation every Sunday. We were proud of being smarter than those AG folks too who didn't accept the Word-Faith message. Was this a religious spirit?

A year ago the Devil attacked my family and my wife asked for a divorce out of the blue. I went straight to God and all my word-faith scriptures but nothing changed...but me. I realized my prayer life was pretty sad and that I needed to get closer to Jesus. Would he "know me" on Judgment Day? Was I crucified with Christ and was He living through me? Did I esteem myself better than anyone else? Was I proud about anything? Did people see Jesus when I entered the room?

Being led by the Holy Spirit is much more important than having a theological formula in your back pocket that you think you can pull out and use if there is ever a crisis. This imbalance is something the Lord prophesied through me years ago when I was going to Dave Demola's church, the biggest church in N.J..

I'm not saying the W-F message is wrong. I believe my family is healed and the divorce action is cursed to it's roots, removed and cast into the sea, dead, null and void. You either get bitter or better in a trial. I chose to get better, to let Jesus live His life through me. I now pray on my knees and worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with my hands in the air and tell them that I love them with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. I thank them over and over for saving me and inviting me into their family to live with them forever. I can call Father God "Daddy" and Jesus is not ashamed to call me "brother".

I think in this pop culture and as we face the end times we DO need to hear the salvation message every week in church as part of the sermon. It's a matter of making Heaven and missing Hell. How important is that?? Dolph

God Bless You and Yours, Dolph. You've nailed it- that our personal relationship with Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, transcends "religion," denomination, and the various dogmas of Man. Your prayer life, as well as that which you live each day, is vastly improved, and will continue to do so...

I pray that all your prayers, hopes, wants, needs, desires, and aspirations will be as The Lord directs you.

Maranatha

Carter F. Leffen, aka Watchman2013