Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God will not allow difficulty unless He has a divine purpose

[frad70]

Quote the scripture that says an almighty all knowing God is surprized when someone dies.

I won't. I never said He is surprised when someone dies.

As for Calvin: Do you agree that the teaching that says some will go to Hell because God sovereignly chose them for Hell is from Hell itself? Yes or No, please.

[frad70]

Philippians 1:21-22 NKJV

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.

It doesn't say 'what God shall choose' but what I (i.e. Paul) shall choose.

Do you really believe that is what Paul saying?

Yes, I do.

You believe Paul was talking about suicide?

No, I don't.

[titus213]

There are times when God is surprised . . . for example we read the following in Isaiah 63 (I will use the NLT because it brings out the point more clearly):

“I have been treading the winepress alone;
no one was there to help me.
In my anger I have trampled my enemies
as if they were grapes.
In my fury I have trampled my foes.
Their blood has stained my clothes.
For the time has come for me to avenge my people,
to ransom them from their oppressors.
I was amazed to see that no one intervened
to help the oppressed.
So I myself stepped in to save them with my strong arm,
and my wrath sustained me." (Isaiah 63.3-5)

and later in the chapter:

I will tell of the Lord’s unfailing love.
I will praise the Lord for all he has done.
I will rejoice in his great goodness to Israel,
which he has granted according to his mercy and love.
He said, “They are my very own people.
Surely they will not betray me again.”
And he became their Savior.
In all their suffering he also suffered,
and he personally rescued them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them.
He lifted them up and carried them
through all the years.
But they rebelled against him
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he became their enemy
and fought against them. (Isaiah 63.7-10)

[Justaned]

There are times when God is surprised . . . for example we read the following in Isaiah 63 (I will use the NLT because it brings out the point more clearly):

“I have been treading the winepress alone;
no one was there to help me.
In my anger I have trampled my enemies
as if they were grapes.
In my fury I have trampled my foes.
Their blood has stained my clothes.
For the time has come for me to avenge my people,
to ransom them from their oppressors.
I was amazed to see that no one intervened
to help the oppressed.
So I myself stepped in to save them with my strong arm,
and my wrath sustained me." (Isaiah 63.3-5)

and later in the chapter:

I will tell of the Lord’s unfailing love.
I will praise the Lord for all he has done.
I will rejoice in his great goodness to Israel,
which he has granted according to his mercy and love.
He said, “They are my very own people.
Surely they will not betray me again.”
And he became their Savior.
In all their suffering he also suffered,
and he personally rescued them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them.
He lifted them up and carried them
through all the years.
But they rebelled against him
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he became their enemy
and fought against them. (Isaiah 63.7-10)

Titus123
You do know hyperbole.
Do you really think God's garment were stained red as blood because he was trampling the wine press of his wrath? Or do you think this might be hyperbole?

If you do then what makes you think God shifts from hyperbole to literal meaning within the same thought?

Oh come on, we are talking of God, all knowing, all seeing, the God that created us. Do you really believe something we could do could surprized God?
Won't that make God short sighted and not all knowing? Wouldn't that contradict the definition of a god?

[Rocky]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you. why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden? Now there is a reason for this question, and in a sense it does go with this thread, so bare with me.

I have never figured that one out.
When parents have children they child proof the house. Why God didn't child proof the garden in this live I don't know, but I expect that when I see perfect I will understand it perfectly.

So God is a bad parent? Ed, thank you for your reply. The answer to this is found in the bible. They are over 20,000 scriptures concerning God, through study one can understand what is revealed in scripture. Even concerning this. God had to test mans free will Before we was going to allow them to live forever. As you may already know, man originally was not supposed to die, but be immortal. But before God was going to allow man to take from the tree of life and live forever, the free will and faithfulness had to be tested. According to the bible God chooses at times to limit his foreknowledge of mans decisions in order to adhere to his plan of free moral agency. I was going to give scripture, but this would be much longer then it already is. But I will say this can be found in the story of Abraham, sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, and other instances in scripture. I mean, could you imaging not testing man and allowing him to live forever in sin. God finds out according to scripture at times what someone is going to do just as we do. God has given us the written word to understand Him, and what is revealed in scripture we can understand His will and his dealings with mankind.. But one has to take the bible for what it says, and not add to it or over allegoricallize it, or filter it though bad theology.

[Justaned]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you. why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden? Now there is a reason for this question, and in a sense it does go with this thread, so bare with me.

I have never figured that one out.
When parents have children they child proof the house. Why God didn't child proof the garden in this live I don't know, but I expect that when I see perfect I will understand it perfectly.

So God is a bad parent? Ed, thank you for your reply. The answer to this is found in the bible. They are over 20,000 scriptures concerning God, through study one can understand what is revealed in scripture. Even concerning this. God had to test mans free will Before we was going to allow them to live forever. As you may already know, man originally was not supposed to die, but be immortal. But before God was going to allow man to take from the tree of life and live forever, the free will and faithfulness had to be tested. According to the bible God chooses at times to limit his foreknowledge of mans decisions in order to adhere to his plan of free moral agency. I was going to give scripture, but this would be much longer then it already is. But I will say this can be found in the story of Abraham, sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, and other instances in scripture. I mean, could you imaging not testing man and allowing him to live forever in sin. God finds out according to scripture at times what someone is going to do just as we do. God has given us the written word to understand Him, and what is revealed in scripture we can understand His will and his dealings with mankind.. But one has to take the bible for what it says, and not add to it or over allegoricallize it, or filter it though bad theology.

Interesting hypothesis and one I have heard before, however man as you know is a fickled being. How much time has been used arguing that a saved man can backslide and become a sinner and saved again by the minute. Futher Hebrews 6 and Hebrew 10 both state that a saved man can actually go into apostasy. So all that was proven at the time of a fall was man was susceptible to the three lusts of the flesh that God knew he would be. In fact the serpent was aware also, as proven by the fact it was those exact three temptations the Serpent used to tempt Eve.

If it was a test as you suggest it seems everyone but man knew what would tempt man.

So what was proven that God didn't already know?

As I said only man didn't know the answer. If anything the fall in garden was to show man that man would not obey God and needed a Savior to make man worthy of God.

[Justaned]

Hi Ed, I have a question for you. why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden? Now there is a reason for this question, and in a sense it does go with this thread, so bare with me.

I have never figured that one out.
When parents have children they child proof the house. Why God didn't child proof the garden in this live I don't know, but I expect that when I see perfect I will understand it perfectly.

So God is a bad parent? Ed, thank you for your reply.

Do not misunderstand my answer as even suggestting God is a bad parent. God is the perfect parent.
But why God allowed man to be tempted knowing man would succum to it is beyond my understanding and I can not find an answer in scripture. I surmise God wanted man to learn the truth about himself. God knew and now we do that man would have never accepted that info had God just told us.

But I don't know if that is the answer or not. Like I said it is something I ponder and I am assured I will know that answer when in perfection I can understand it.

[frenchie]

My take would be:
That even though God knew man would fail the test he is a God of thruth and the thing had to hapen in real life to be real so nobody in the whole creation could argue the reality of it. My 2¢

[Rocky]

But why God allowed man to be tempted knowing man would succum to it is beyond my understanding and I can not find an answer in scripture. But I don't know if that is the answer or not. Like I said it is something I ponder and I am assured I will know that answer when in perfection I can understand it.

God didn't know Ed, hence "being tested" Thats why he allowed them to be tested. It's called free will ED. If I know what you are going to do before you do it and then test you anyway that's not free will that is playing some sick game. Your Calvinism is showing again bro, that's why you wont let your self understand. Just simply read your bible with out this John Macarthur
Calvinistic filter. Oh and I have a John Macarthur commentary, I am on to you brother lol

[titus213]

People who find the Bible saying things that don't fit their view of God are forced to appeal to things like "hyperbole", "accomodation", "anthropomorphism", etc. even when it's clear that such cannot be the case (as in the Isaiah 63 passage I used the other day, which anyone can clearly see uses no hyperbole at all in the 2nd quote I gave and only uses it in part of the 1st quote).

Of course, that raises the question: do we really stand on the Word of God, or do we bend the Word of God to fit what we want it to say about God? In Exodus 4 when God tells Moses to try first one thing which may or may not work to convince the Israelites, and then another . . . is God just fooling around with Moses or is he truly open to actual contingency -- where something may or may not come to pass depending on human response? This seems to involve deciding what must be true of God on the basis of what we think must be true, rather than on the basis of what the Bible says. If the Bible does not mean it when it says God is amazed by things, or sees true open-ended outcomes, why should we assume it means it when it says other human-like things about God, such as that God loves us, or that he keeps his promises?

The God of the Bible has surprises and isn't afraid of them. That's REAL sovereignty.

The God of the Bible sometimes learns things by searching, examining, probing and discovering, as in Psalms 14 and 139. That's a REAL God who honors the God-given freedom he bestowed on man.