Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ HE WHO HINDERS

[Justaned]

Ed, you continue to demean the Church. The Church has billions of angels besides the Holy Ghost, and your candidate is "an angel"??

I am not demeaning anything.

Facts are facts.

The visible church hasn't restrained anything, divorce, drug usage, abuse, and such are rampant. Known adulterers are being elected to political offices, corruption requires ever increasing police forces. In countries where the church is thriving it is forced by the powers that be to be underground and secret, so it isn't hindering anything there.

We have young girls snatch off our streets and sold into prostitution. We have millions upon millions of aborted babies being placed in our dumps. Motel rooms are filled floor to ceiling with money used to buy drugs, every state as far as I know had a lottery. Our TV are filled with homosexual couples, nudity, and no one blinks at the use of God's name in vain. Our kids use God name in vain everything time the shout OMG which is as common as saying please.

Same sex marraiges are now being done in our National Catherdral in Washington. Christian companies are being force to include abortion benefit in their employee insurance plans. Our movies are filled with foul language and we are told movie producers put some scenes in so they get a PG13 or R rating which assures them more money at the box office. As i said somewhere else I live in area with 50,000 bars and less than 5000 churches and pastors complain about new churches and the increased competition.

When i go to church Sunday evening the cimena parking lot is filled to overflowing, they are literally parking in the grass, and there are tons of open spaces in the parking lots of every church we pass.

I live near a number of liquor stores and a number of churches. The weekly income of one of those liquor stores surpasses the income of all the churches.

Tell me what the church is restraining? I can't think of a thing.

[Justaned]

Ed, you continue to demean the Church. The Church has billions of angels besides the Holy Ghost, and your candidate is "an angel"??

I am not demeaning anything.

Facts are facts.

The visible church hasn't restrained anything, divorce, drug usage, abuse, and such are rampant. Known adulterers are being elected to political offices, corruption requires ever increasing police forces. In countries where the church is thriving it is forced by the powers that be to be underground and secret, so it isn't hindering anything there.

We have young girls snatch off our streets and sold into prostitution. We have millions upon millions of aborted babies being placed in our dumps. Motel rooms are filled floor to ceiling with money used to buy drugs, every state as far as I know had a lottery. Our TV are filled with homosexual couples, nudity, and no one blinks at the use of God's name in vain. Our kids use God name in vain everything time the shout OMG which is as common as saying please.

Same sex marraiges are now being done in our National Catherdral in Washington. Christian companies are being force to include abortion benefit in their employee insurance plans. Our movies are filled with foul language and we are told movie producers put some scenes in so they get a PG13 or R rating which assures them more money at the box office. As i said somewhere else I live in area with 50,000 bars and less than 5000 churches and pastors complain about new churches and the increased competition.

When i go to church Sunday evening the cimena parking lot is filled to overflowing, they are literally parking in the grass, and there are tons of open spaces in the parking lots of every church we pass.

I live near a number of liquor stores and a number of churches. The weekly income of one of those liquor stores surpasses the income of all the churches.

Tell me what the church is restraining? I can't think of a thing.

Ed, part of the Church, named Justaned, is restraining evil by not calling Leon a certain lewd fellow of the baser sort, even though your flesh wants to say it!!

Point made But I don't think that is restraining the spirit of the antichrist from effecting the world.

[Justaned]

Ed, Every time someone forgives you, they are restraining the Mystery of Iniquity.

Obama and friends are "spreading democracy" around the world not understanding what made America great was not democracy but Christianity.

Dolph Beleive me Obama isn't spreading democracy he is a socialist and wants a one world government.

I think you are confusing Christianity and the practive thereof with restraining.
Hitler was an antichrist in a very Christian country Germany nothing but the God hand restrained him. If he hadn't made the blunders he did we would be speaking German. Interestingly at the Battle of Bulge German and American soldiers sang Christmas carols to each other.

[macca]

Well ,,,i am teetering on a change in my theology will have to do more study now

[scottae316]

Christ and His Church are one thing and the man and his wife are another, with the feminine pronoun referring to the woman who is the wife of the man, not to the Church as the wife of Christ.

Hi Leon,

Yes, I have read that; he's mistkaken there, too. The text in Ephesians specifically says "Christ loved the church and gave himself for her" . . . "that he might present her to himself a glorious church", and so forth.

I know that there are translations that translate the it - her.

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV) 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That word it was also translated him more that her.

English Words used in KJV:
him 1952
his 1084
their 318
he 253
her 242
they 121
same 80
himself 58
miscellaneous translations 1679

[Total Count: 5787] James Strong, Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary, (Austin, TX: WORDsearch Corp., 2007), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "846".

Given the rest of Scripture along with the meaning of the word itself, I think that is why Dake came to his conclusion.

Hi Leon,

It does not matter what any translation states or what Dake or anyone else, look at the original Greek that is what decides it, and as someone pointed out Greek like may other languages have gender but it is grammatical, not necessarily to be taken literal.

[bibleman]

Christ and His Church are one thing and the man and his wife are another, with the feminine pronoun referring to the woman who is the wife of the man, not to the Church as the wife of Christ.

Hi Leon,

Yes, I have read that; he's mistkaken there, too. The text in Ephesians specifically says "Christ loved the church and gave himself for her" . . . "that he might present her to himself a glorious church", and so forth.

I know that there are translations that translate the it - her.

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV) 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That word it was also translated him more that her.

English Words used in KJV:
him 1952
his 1084
their 318
he 253
her 242
they 121
same 80
himself 58
miscellaneous translations 1679

[Total Count: 5787] James Strong, Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary, (Austin, TX: WORDsearch Corp., 2007), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "846".

Given the rest of Scripture along with the meaning of the word itself, I think that is why Dake came to his conclusion.

Hi Leon,

It does not matter what any translation states or what Dake or anyone else, look at the original Greek that is what decides it, and as someone pointed out Greek like may other languages have gender but it is grammatical, not necessarily to be taken literal.

Thanks Scott,

Yes I understand that concerning the gender in Greek.

[Justaned]

Now that I think about it Hitler is a perfect example of what I think is divine intervention hindered Hitler.

Hitler unexplicitably divided his forces by opening two major fronts.
Hitler so enraged with Russia basically made his troops cannon fodder.
Hitler joined with Japan declaring war with the US.
Germany mistakenly bombed civilian targets in England thus launching the civilian bombing raids of WW2

Experts basically agree had Hitler not done some of these things Europe and quite possibly all the world woud now be speaking German. That is very subjective. Be that as it may I can see God's hand in each, very similar to how God dealt with various unrigtheous kingdoms and kings in the Old Testament.

As a restrainer the church really isn't up to the task, restraint of the Antichrist has to be on a spiritual level. Now I can believe the prayers of the saints may strengthen or encourage that restrainer but to actually be a restraint no.

It takes spiritual deception to restrain, delusion and often times mental instability all of which a spiritual being would be required.

Take America from it founding to about the late 60's the church was the moral compass. But that compass began to break down in the 1900's with the rise of prosperity in the nation. We had mobs, prohibition, rum runners, then free love, open marriages, rise of homosexuality, same sex marriage, drug abuse, prostitution, elict sex, pedophila, sex slave trade, drive by shootings, criminals using young kids to kill because they get lighter sentences, school shootings, steep rise in divorce, turn key kids, corruption in the church, the church and Christianity iself the blunt of many jokes on TV and Movies, pornography, nudity and cursing in our movies and on TV and Radio.
The church is no longer the even the strong moral compass it once was.

The church is not the restrainer, it is my belief the only thing that could restrain Satan from loosing his Antichrist upon the world is a spiritual being opposing Satan in the heavenlies. I believe it is the same type of force that caused Hitler to make so many obvious mistakes.

[Justaned]

As you think about this think also of the USSR, what restrained it? The US in some cases but what really happened in the USSR was at a spiritual level that caused physical realities to collapse and tumble down. Remember how quick it was, one night you went to bed and in the morning the USSR was no more.

The church was underground holding on by it's fingernails it was not influencing any decisions in the USSR. What restrained the Antichrist spirit in the USSR was spiritual in nature commanded by God.

[Justaned]

Ed, Every time someone forgives you, they are restraining the Mystery of Iniquity.

Obama and friends are "spreading democracy" around the world not understanding what made America great was not democracy but Christianity.

Dolph Beleive me Obama isn't spreading democracy he is a socialist and wants a one world government.

Ed, I was being sarcastic, that's why I used the quotation marks.

I think you are confusing Christianity and the practive thereof with restraining.
Hitler was an antichrist in a very Christian country Germany nothing but the God hand restrained him. If he hadn't made the blunders he did we would be speaking German. Interestingly at the Battle of Bulge German and American soldiers sang Christmas carols to each other.

Ed, Germany had lost it's moral compass after getting raped at Versailles and during the decadent 20's.

You are right very similar to the church in America today. But even though there was still a church it did nothing to restrain the Antichrist like force from rising within Hitler.
Yet Hitler was restrained by a series of mistakes and almost unexplainable actions on Hitler's part. For example Hitlers refusal until it was too late to accept what everyone was telling him about the landing of D-day. Or his refusal to follow the advice of his Generals and to withdraw and reform his army in Russia. Or his insistance to split his army to try to capture the oil field and attack Stalingard as the same time. Everyone has to see that there had to be spiritual forces at work in all of that, restraining and defeating him.

[Justaned]

Now that I think about it Hitler is a perfect example of what I think is divine intervention hindered Hitler.

Hitler unexplicitably divided his forces by opening two major fronts.

Ed, not true. Hitler had no choice. Russia was just about to attack Germany in June of '41.


Hitler so enraged with Russia basically made his troops cannon fodder.

Ed, not true. Hitler loved his troops and had won TO iron crosses in WW I.


Hitler joined with Japan declaring war with the US.
Germany mistakenly bombed civilian targets in England thus launching the civilian bombing raids of WW2

True, but Churchill and Roosevelt/Morganthau used this mistake as an excuse to illegally carpet bomb German women and children day and night month after month in an effort to break Germany's will to fight'

Experts basically agree had Hitler not done some of these things Europe and quite possibly all the world woud now be speaking German. That is very subjective. Be that as it may I can see God's hand in each, very similar to how God dealt with various unrigtheous kingdoms and kings in the Old Testament.

Ed, our ally antichrist Russia was much more unrighteous than Germany who understood the Communist threat to the world. Gen. George Patten wanted to take the German army into Russia and put the real threat to the West to death. Instead we aided the New World Order/Russia even unto this day.

As a restrainer the church really isn't up to the task, restraint of the Antichrist has to be on a spiritual level. Now I can believe the prayers of the saints may strengthen or encourage that restrainer but to actually be a restraint no.

Ed, you still don't get it!? Not all of the Church is tongue talking Pentecostals but we are the salt of the earth. Even the secular folks know what is right and wrong and are part of the Christian culture and when in big trouble cry out to God! You greatly underestimate the SALT OF THE EARTH. Russia, China and Cambodia killed over 50 million of their own people after closing their churches. Does that mean anything to you. America was the greatest country in 6,000 years because it was the most Christian and thereby, had the most freedom.

It takes spiritual deception to restrain, delusion and often times mental instability all of which a spiritual being would be required.

Ed, no questions there are demons and angels working through people. But people either have God or the Devil as their father.

Take America from it founding to about the late 60's the church was the moral compass. But that compass began to break down in the 1900's with the rise of prosperity in the nation. We had mobs, prohibition, rum runners, then free love, open marriages, rise of homosexuality, same sex marriage, drug abuse, prostitution, elict sex, pedophila, sex slave trade, drive by shootings, criminals using young kids to kill because they get lighter sentences, school shootings, steep rise in divorce, turn key kids, corruption in the church, the church and Christianity iself the blunt of many jokes on TV and Movies, pornography, nudity and cursing in our movies and on TV and Radio.
The church is no longer the even the strong moral compass it once was.

Ed, I would put much of the blame on the communist news media. There are virtually no Christian owners. Same with Hollywood who shapes our culture. These forces are too strong for the average Joe.

The church is not the restrainer, it is my belief the only thing that could restrain Satan from loosing his Antichrist upon the world is a spiritual being opposing Satan in the heavenlies. I believe it is the same type of force that caused Hitler to make so many obvious mistakes.

Ed, this talk that God is sovereign and the master puppeteer is a lie from the devil and has been swallowed by the Church. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead resides in us if we would only get our act together. Andrew Wommack may be the man to awaken the Church. His teachings have brought the Word-Faith message to a new level which just might trigger world-wide revival.

Never said puppeteer nor did I ever suggest such action was ever taken by God.

Don't jump into the ditch and trying to drag me in with you.

Anyone can see spiritual intervention and if you can't then you are blind.

Yes God does control this world.

Look at the testimony of scripture about Pharoah and Moses.

Look at the testimony of every patriarch.

Did Joseph end up second in command in Egypt when the Children of Israel needed refuge by accident?

Did the inteaction between David and Saul happen by chance, were the results happenstance or did God ordain them. Remember God told David when David was yet a youth that he would be King of Israel. Was that just a lucky guess on God's part?

God can move in ways unknown and unimagined by man yet we try to apply man's ability to God to conform Him into something less than He is. God is God and nothing is impossible with God.