Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[luchnia]

He decided to serve his own lusts, above the wishes of God.

His choice is the key - he decided. The man chose to turn away from his saved condition to serve the evil one. One cannot turn away or fall from where they have not been. This is exactly what God's word teaches throughout about the born again believer belonging unto the Lord that falls to serve sin and satan.

[Hill Top]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

He did it by his own power.
And BTW, he wasn't the "seed" of God.
The seed of God would have gendered him, and he would have been the fruit of God's seed.
Seed can only bring forth after its own kind, since Gen 1:11...the third day.

OK so you are saying that man has in his own power to do the following:

He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

Where does the goodness come from in the heart of man? I thought according to Jeremiah 1:9 that the heart of man was desperately wicked?

How is this goodness produced from a wicked heart?

It isn't goodness.
It is a charade.

Charade???
You are too funny!

He repented of his repentance from sin. (2 Cor 7:10)
So he was a liar.
He decided to serve his own lusts, above the wishes of God.
So he was an idolater who had not crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
He walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
So was still under the Law. (Gal 5:18)
A lying idolater who walked in the flesh and was under the Law.
That's your idea of righteous?
That is your idea of the fruit of God?
I cannot agree.

Still you have not answered the question, in your mind, a sinner, lived such a good life for 20 years, even longer than you have lived for God.

By what power was he enabled to that kind of life?

He lived it by his own power.
Here is something to think about...
If a man can live as a false Christians for twenty years, without repute; why can't those who are actually in Christ, with God's grace and Spirit, do it?

[Hill Top]

He decided to serve his own lusts, above the wishes of God.

His choice is the key - he decided. The man chose to turn away from his saved condition to serve the evil one. One cannot turn away or fall from where they have not been. This is exactly what God's word teaches throughout about the born again believer belonging unto the Lord that falls to serve sin and satan.

The sin showed who he was "born of".
It is written..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

He decided he didn't want to love God anymore and the sin showed it.
Had he continued on in the grace and love of God, he would have continued on unto salvation.
But because he had not been reborn of God's seed, he didn't keep up the charade.

[luchnia]

He decided to serve his own lusts, above the wishes of God.

His choice is the key - he decided. The man chose to turn away from his saved condition to serve the evil one. One cannot turn away or fall from where they have not been. This is exactly what God's word teaches throughout about the born again believer belonging unto the Lord that falls to serve sin and satan.

The sin showed who he was "born of".
It is written..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

He decided he didn't want to love God anymore and the sin showed it.
Had he continued on in the grace and love of God, he would have continued on unto salvation.
But because he had not been reborn of God's seed, he didn't keep up the charade.

I don't think this thread is about one acting like a Christian, but one that is a Christian. I agree with all but the last sentence you posted, because he was reborn until the point he fell and became a servant to sin and satan. He chose a different seed. To state it again, one cannot fall from where they have not been.

Since scripture shows they could fall away, they would have had to been somewhere to fall away from. You cannot fall off a mountain you have never climbed. If there is no danger of falling, then there would be no need to warn of such. The Bible is full of warnings of such.

[bibleman]

He lived it by his own power.
Here is something to think about...
If a man can live as a false Christians for twenty years, without repute; why can't those who are actually in Christ, with God's grace and Spirit, do it?

So you believe that a man can live a wonderful Christian life by 20 years without Christ!

Amazing!

[Hill Top]

He decided to serve his own lusts, above the wishes of God.

His choice is the key - he decided. The man chose to turn away from his saved condition to serve the evil one. One cannot turn away or fall from where they have not been. This is exactly what God's word teaches throughout about the born again believer belonging unto the Lord that falls to serve sin and satan.

The sin showed who he was "born of".
It is written..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

He decided he didn't want to love God anymore and the sin showed it.
Had he continued on in the grace and love of God, he would have continued on unto salvation.
But because he had not been reborn of God's seed, he didn't keep up the charade.

I don't think this thread is about one acting like a Christian, but one that is a Christian. I agree with all but the last sentence you posted, because he was reborn until the point he fell and became a servant to sin and satan. He chose a different seed. To state it again, one cannot fall from where they have not been.

So he was reborn, and reborn again.
I don't see that in scripture.

Since scripture shows they could fall away, they would have had to been somewhere to fall away from. You cannot fall off a mountain you have never climbed. If there is no danger of falling, then there would be no need to warn of such. The Bible is full of warnings of such.

Men can fall away from a position or stance, when they change their position or stance.
A seed can't change the fruit it bears from apples to onions.

[Hill Top]

He lived it by his own power.
Here is something to think about...
If a man can live as a false Christians for twenty years, without repute; why can't those who are actually in Christ, with God's grace and Spirit, do it?

So you believe that a man can live a wonderful Christian life by 20 years without Christ!
Amazing!

Ever heard of Mahatma Gandhi?
Mother Theresa?
Pope...fill in the blank?

The devil is persistent, if nothing else, and will use every trick in the book to stain the name of Jesus Christ and of His church.
He has been using spies, infiltrators, since at least Matt 22:16, Gal 2:4, Jude 1:4

[luchnia]

Men can fall away from a position or stance, when they change their position or stance.
A seed can't change the fruit it bears from apples to onions.

A seed cannot change the fruit it bears, but men can change and plant a different seed in their heart and bear different fruit.

[Hill Top]

Men can fall away from a position or stance, when they change their position or stance.
A seed can't change the fruit it bears from apples to onions.

A seed cannot change the fruit it bears, but men can change and plant a different seed in their heart and bear different fruit.

You are sure persistent in your attempts to make 1 John 3:9 a lie.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
As those born of God cannot commit sin, it is implausible to imagine them falling away.

[luchnia]

Men can fall away from a position or stance, when they change their position or stance.
A seed can't change the fruit it bears from apples to onions.

A seed cannot change the fruit it bears, but men can change and plant a different seed in their heart and bear different fruit.

You are sure persistent in your attempts to make 1 John 3:9 a lie.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
As those born of God cannot commit sin, it is implausible to imagine them falling away.

You are sure persistent in your attempts to make Jesus a liar in the parable of the sower and the rest of the verses in 1 John and 2 John as well as many other verses.

Maybe it is time to start discussing the ground the seed goes in and what it means to understand so that the seed will remain because if you don't, it won't. The words "remaineth in him" have meaning as well as "doth not commit sin". It may be implausible to imagine them falling away, but nonetheless, Jesus and many others in God's word said they did and people will.

We can deny it till the end of the earth, but it won't make it any less true that they did fall away and others will. When verses have words such as "if any man sin..." that has meaning just as the other verses do.

We can pull any verse out of context like 1 John 3:9 and build a doctrine from it, but that won't make it true. Verse 10 is just as important as verse 9. The entire word must be rightly handled. In my early days I was a "one text wonder" but I was wrong in taking verses out of context and out of their meaning.

Look at 2 John 1:9 and ask yourself how important that verse is? Does whosoever transgresseth and abideth not have meaning? How can one transgress and not abide from a point they were never at? Why not put the same weight on all the verses?

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 3:10 (KJV)
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
2 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Matthew 13:18-23 (KJV)
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.