Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ What is "SIN"

[Hill Top]

The relativism is a valid point.
If stubbing ones toe is a sin, what is that relative to...I mean, by what law or rule will we be judged for such an unintentional occurrence?
Frankly, I live by the Law of Christ, which is...Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Forgetting one's keys, stubbing a toe, or posting incomplete data is not "illegal".
If anyone wants to feel condemned for these actions...it is on them.
They have created their own Law.

What law or rule will we be judged is a great question. I see you haven't answered it though.
Also you are confusing two different issues. The first is what is "sin" and the second is the penalty of that "sin!"

Let us use your unintentional occurrence as an example:

Take person "A" that does some work, research, experiments, etc and but arrives at a wrong conclusion. That person even acts on their research and there appears to be no dire consequences. An honest, unintentional mistake, no harm no foul right?

Person "A" again acts on that same research, this time 1000 people die. It is the same mistake, but the consequences are different. Why is he held accountable the second time and not the first? God holds us accountable for both the mistake and the consciquences.

You and others here are judging something as sin or not sin, only by the severity of the consequences not the fact that the action missed the mark.

You asked about what is it (sin) relative to. The standard is that which is set by God and his nature. He calls for us to be perfect. He calls for all things to be done in faith. He calls for his followers to do good everywhere and everytime they see to do it. This is a very high, exacting, and demanding standard.

On the other hand many on this forum are determining what is sin, not by God's standard of perfect holiness, perfect obedience to all the things He has commanded. Instead they are determining what is sin by the moving standard of how one action compares to another. By comparing the consciquences and intentions.

Again sin is not determine by how close or how far away from the mark you are. It is determine if you hit the exact mark that God sets, not one-onehundreth of a millimeter off.

So, determine what sin is first, realise the magnitude of it, the depth of it, the deceitfulness of it regardless of what consciquences it may or may not bear. Sin is still sin even if we cannot determine there are any harmful reactions to it.

Sin is disobedience to God.
God never told us not to stub a toe...or make a mistake.
Only you did.
I don't serve you: I serve the living God who gave us the latitude to make and learn from our mistakes.
I live under a new covenant that has allowed us to obey Him without fault.
It doesn't come with a "shields up" option to prevent stubbing a toe, or any other mistake.
You seem to be reintroducing a version of the Mosaic Law under the guise of legislated "any mistake is a sin".
Jesus died to free us from the Law, and from dogma such as yours.

[Grandfather]

Sin is disobedience to God.

If you would have stopped right here, you would have been okay. But you had to keep going.

God never told us not to stub a toe...or make a mistake.

I agree God never used those words. However He said be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. If you think making mistakes is equal to being perfect. Then I think we have identified the problem.

I don't serve you: I serve the living God who gave us the latitude to make and learn from our mistakes.

I never asked you to serve me, so why attempt to smear me with that statement. And I wholehearted agree that God gives us the "latitude" to learn from our mistakes, but that doesn't mean they were not still mistakes, missing the mark.

I live under a new covenant that has allowed us to obey Him without fault.
It doesn't come with a "shields up" option to prevent stubbing a toe, or any other mistake.

Yes, we live under a new covenant. And you are correct it does not come with a "shields up" option (whatever that is) to prevent mistakes. I have never claimed it did.

You seem to be reintroducing a version of the Mosaic Law under the guise of legislated "any mistake is a sin".
Jesus died to free us from the Law, and from dogma such as yours.

I am not reintroducing anything. It is your theology that requires the dogma of perfection. Go back and read my postings. I've written often about the unmerited grace and mercy of God. Does that sound like the Mosaic Law? What you've done is re-defined the true nature of sin to something you can manage and control in order to maintain your doctrine of perfection and sinlessness. I do not know why your anger is directed at me. I've pointed to God's Word... be ye perfect... and you do not like that part because you know it is unattainable in the natural. You know that as long as you are bound to an "earth suit" you cannot achieve that state of perfection. And your dogmatic adherence to a sin free doctrine here and now, will not allow you to grasp the truth that in the Spirit, God sees His children as sin free, although in this present state we are not there yet.

Be ye perfect.... unless you can claim that is all areas and aspects of your life, then your arguement is with God's Word and sin taints you. Now, how one deals with that sin is a topic for another thread.

[Hill Top]

Sin is disobedience to God.

If you would have stopped right here, you would have been okay. But you had to keep going.

God never told us not to stub a toe...or make a mistake.

I agree God never used those words. However He said be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. If you think making mistakes is equal to being perfect. Then I think we have identified the problem.

I don't serve you: I serve the living God who gave us the latitude to make and learn from our mistakes.

I never asked you to serve me, so why attempt to smear me with that statement. And I wholehearted agree that God gives us the "latitude" to learn from our mistakes, but that doesn't mean they were not still mistakes, missing the mark.

I live under a new covenant that has allowed us to obey Him without fault.
It doesn't come with a "shields up" option to prevent stubbing a toe, or any other mistake.

Yes, we live under a new covenant. And you are correct it does not come with a "shields up" option (whatever that is) to prevent mistakes. I have never claimed it did.

You seem to be reintroducing a version of the Mosaic Law under the guise of legislated "any mistake is a sin".
Jesus died to free us from the Law, and from dogma such as yours.

I am not reintroducing anything. It is your theology that requires the dogma of perfection. Go back and read my postings. I've written often about the unmerited grace and mercy of God. Does that sound like the Mosaic Law? What you've done is re-defined the true nature of sin to something you can manage and control in order to maintain your doctrine of perfection and sinlessness. I do not know why your anger is directed at me. I've pointed to God's Word... be ye perfect... and you do not like that part because you know it is unattainable in the natural. You know that as long as you are bound to an "earth suit" you cannot achieve that state of perfection. And your dogmatic adherence to a sin free doctrine here and now, will not allow you to grasp the truth that in the Spirit, God sees His children as sin free, although in this present state we are not there yet.

Be ye perfect.... unless you can claim that is all areas and aspects of your life, then your arguement is with God's Word and sin taints you. Now, how one deals with that sin is a topic for another thread.

You have relegated yourself to a life of never ending sin, because you have created a reason to believe the grace and power of the Holy Spirit cannot do the job of making and keeping us free from sin.
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)

You might want to think on this verse too...
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
Who are we disobeying when we stub a toe or lose our keys?

[Grandfather]

Sin is disobedience to God.

If you would have stopped right here, you would have been okay. But you had to keep going.

God never told us not to stub a toe...or make a mistake.

I agree God never used those words. However He said be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. If you think making mistakes is equal to being perfect. Then I think we have identified the problem.

I don't serve you: I serve the living God who gave us the latitude to make and learn from our mistakes.

I never asked you to serve me, so why attempt to smear me with that statement. And I wholehearted agree that God gives us the "latitude" to learn from our mistakes, but that doesn't mean they were not still mistakes, missing the mark.

I live under a new covenant that has allowed us to obey Him without fault.
It doesn't come with a "shields up" option to prevent stubbing a toe, or any other mistake.

Yes, we live under a new covenant. And you are correct it does not come with a "shields up" option (whatever that is) to prevent mistakes. I have never claimed it did.

You seem to be reintroducing a version of the Mosaic Law under the guise of legislated "any mistake is a sin".
Jesus died to free us from the Law, and from dogma such as yours.

I am not reintroducing anything. It is your theology that requires the dogma of perfection. Go back and read my postings. I've written often about the unmerited grace and mercy of God. Does that sound like the Mosaic Law? What you've done is re-defined the true nature of sin to something you can manage and control in order to maintain your doctrine of perfection and sinlessness. I do not know why your anger is directed at me. I've pointed to God's Word... be ye perfect... and you do not like that part because you know it is unattainable in the natural. You know that as long as you are bound to an "earth suit" you cannot achieve that state of perfection. And your dogmatic adherence to a sin free doctrine here and now, will not allow you to grasp the truth that in the Spirit, God sees His children as sin free, although in this present state we are not there yet.

Be ye perfect.... unless you can claim that is all areas and aspects of your life, then your arguement is with God's Word and sin taints you. Now, how one deals with that sin is a topic for another thread.

You have relegated yourself to a life of never ending sin, because you have created a reason to believe the grace and power of the Holy Spirit cannot do the job of making and keeping us free from sin.
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)

You might want to think on this verse too...
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
Who are we disobeying when we stub a toe or lose our keys?

Again, you're trying to discuss how to deal with the results but avoiding the cause. You're the one that cannot handle the command "be ye perfect" and are making excuses for it. Again you are defining sin as relative to your situation. Measure it against the standard of God and his command to be perfect. Does God stub his toe or lose his keys? Be like God and quit making God like men.

[Hill Top]

Sin is disobedience to God.

If you would have stopped right here, you would have been okay. But you had to keep going.

God never told us not to stub a toe...or make a mistake.

I agree God never used those words. However He said be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. If you think making mistakes is equal to being perfect. Then I think we have identified the problem.

I don't serve you: I serve the living God who gave us the latitude to make and learn from our mistakes.

I never asked you to serve me, so why attempt to smear me with that statement. And I wholehearted agree that God gives us the "latitude" to learn from our mistakes, but that doesn't mean they were not still mistakes, missing the mark.

I live under a new covenant that has allowed us to obey Him without fault.
It doesn't come with a "shields up" option to prevent stubbing a toe, or any other mistake.

Yes, we live under a new covenant. And you are correct it does not come with a "shields up" option (whatever that is) to prevent mistakes. I have never claimed it did.

You seem to be reintroducing a version of the Mosaic Law under the guise of legislated "any mistake is a sin".
Jesus died to free us from the Law, and from dogma such as yours.

I am not reintroducing anything. It is your theology that requires the dogma of perfection. Go back and read my postings. I've written often about the unmerited grace and mercy of God. Does that sound like the Mosaic Law? What you've done is re-defined the true nature of sin to something you can manage and control in order to maintain your doctrine of perfection and sinlessness. I do not know why your anger is directed at me. I've pointed to God's Word... be ye perfect... and you do not like that part because you know it is unattainable in the natural. You know that as long as you are bound to an "earth suit" you cannot achieve that state of perfection. And your dogmatic adherence to a sin free doctrine here and now, will not allow you to grasp the truth that in the Spirit, God sees His children as sin free, although in this present state we are not there yet.

Be ye perfect.... unless you can claim that is all areas and aspects of your life, then your arguement is with God's Word and sin taints you. Now, how one deals with that sin is a topic for another thread.

You have relegated yourself to a life of never ending sin, because you have created a reason to believe the grace and power of the Holy Spirit cannot do the job of making and keeping us free from sin.
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)

You might want to think on this verse too...
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom 6:16)
Who are we disobeying when we stub a toe or lose our keys?

Again, you're trying to discuss how to deal with the results but avoiding the cause. You're the one that cannot handle the command "be ye perfect" and are making excuses for it. Again you are defining sin as relative to your situation. Measure it against the standard of God and his command to be perfect. Does God stub his toe or lose his keys? Be like God and quit making God like men.

As Jesus' command to be perfect followed the sermon o the mount, our perfection should encapsulate what Jesus said there.
That is the standard we are to measure by.

[Grandfather]

As Jesus' command to be perfect followed the sermon o the mount, our perfection should encapsulate what Jesus said there.
That is the standard we are to measure by.

This is a respectable observation and question. So, the passing of "one jot or tittle" only apply to the Sermon on the Mount? Being angry without cause? Should we then apply that same measure against what Paul writes in Romans? Should what he wrote only be in context of the book of Romans, to those in Rome? The same for the letters of John? Or any other of the scriptures?

So, when John writes - "as he is so are we " what doe now mean? Does that only apply to the context of perfect love? Or when Paul admonishes the Corintihains to "Be perfect" is that only in context? So why does Paul admit in Philipians that he is not "already perfect" if perfection wasn't the goal? He says he is pressing on to achieve that... implying it is a process, not a destination.

The writer of Hebrews writes that salvation is made perfect through sufferings. Again implying a work in progress. (2:10) or that God makes just men perfect. (12:23)

If you want to set the low bar of allowing "mistakes and errors" to not be sin in order to boast that you are sin free, you can do so. But you're only deceiving yourself. More importantly you are held accountable for those that follow you in accepting anything less than perfection as acceptable to the Holy God.

[Hill Top]

As Jesus' command to be perfect followed the sermon o the mount, our perfection should encapsulate what Jesus said there.
That is the standard we are to measure by.

This is a respectable observation and question. So, the passing of "one jot or tittle" only apply to the Sermon on the Mount?

It applied to the Law keepers.

Being angry without cause?

It won't happen to one with a divine nature.

Should we then apply that same measure against what Paul writes in Romans? Should what he wrote only be in context of the book of Romans, to those in Rome? The same for the letters of John? Or any other of the scriptures?

Not at all, as they are also in the NT.

So, when John writes - "as he is so are we " what does now mean?

It means "without sin".

Does that only apply to the context of perfect love?

Yes.

Or when Paul admonishes the Corintihains to "Be perfect" is that only in context?

You will need to post the verse.

So why does Paul admit in Philipians that he is not "already perfect" if perfection wasn't the goal? He says he is pressing on to achieve that... implying it is a process, not a destination.

By checking the context we can tell he is referring to his glorified body, not sinless perfection.

The writer of Hebrews writes that salvation is made perfect through sufferings. Again implying a work in progress. (2:10) or that God makes just men perfect. (12:23)

They are writing about Jesus.
Context counts here too.

If you want to set the low bar of allowing "mistakes and errors" to not be sin in order to boast that you are sin free, you can do so. But you're only deceiving yourself. More importantly you are held accountable for those that follow you in accepting anything less than perfection as acceptable to the Holy God.

Does your new sect have a name?

[Grandfather]

As Jesus' command to be perfect followed the sermon o the mount, our perfection should encapsulate what Jesus said there.
That is the standard we are to measure by.

This is a respectable observation and question. So, the passing of "one jot or tittle" only apply to the Sermon on the Mount?

It applied to the Law keepers.

Being angry without cause?

It won't happen to one with a divine nature.

Should we then apply that same measure against what Paul writes in Romans? Should what he wrote only be in context of the book of Romans, to those in Rome? The same for the letters of John? Or any other of the scriptures?

Not at all, as they are also in the NT.

So, when John writes - "as he is so are we " what does now mean?

It means "without sin".

Does that only apply to the context of perfect love?

Yes.

Or when Paul admonishes the Corintihains to "Be perfect" is that only in context?

You will need to post the verse.

So why does Paul admit in Philipians that he is not "already perfect" if perfection wasn't the goal? He says he is pressing on to achieve that... implying it is a process, not a destination.

By checking the context we can tell he is referring to his glorified body, not sinless perfection.

The writer of Hebrews writes that salvation is made perfect through sufferings. Again implying a work in progress. (2:10) or that God makes just men perfect. (12:23)

They are writing about Jesus.
Context counts here too.

If you want to set the low bar of allowing "mistakes and errors" to not be sin in order to boast that you are sin free, you can do so. But you're only deceiving yourself. More importantly you are held accountable for those that follow you in accepting anything less than perfection as acceptable to the Holy God.

Does your new sect have a name?

orthodox Christianity, the practice handed down through the ages. What's yours, because it is not known through church history and cannot be found.

[Hill Top]

As Jesus' command to be perfect followed the sermon o the mount, our perfection should encapsulate what Jesus said there.
That is the standard we are to measure by.

This is a respectable observation and question. So, the passing of "one jot or tittle" only apply to the Sermon on the Mount?

It applied to the Law keepers.

Being angry without cause?

It won't happen to one with a divine nature.

Should we then apply that same measure against what Paul writes in Romans? Should what he wrote only be in context of the book of Romans, to those in Rome? The same for the letters of John? Or any other of the scriptures?

Not at all, as they are also in the NT.

So, when John writes - "as he is so are we " what does now mean?

It means "without sin".

Does that only apply to the context of perfect love?

Yes.

Or when Paul admonishes the Corintihains to "Be perfect" is that only in context?

You will need to post the verse.

So why does Paul admit in Philipians that he is not "already perfect" if perfection wasn't the goal? He says he is pressing on to achieve that... implying it is a process, not a destination.

By checking the context we can tell he is referring to his glorified body, not sinless perfection.

The writer of Hebrews writes that salvation is made perfect through sufferings. Again implying a work in progress. (2:10) or that God makes just men perfect. (12:23)

They are writing about Jesus.
Context counts here too.

If you want to set the low bar of allowing "mistakes and errors" to not be sin in order to boast that you are sin free, you can do so. But you're only deceiving yourself. More importantly you are held accountable for those that follow you in accepting anything less than perfection as acceptable to the Holy God.

Does your new sect have a name?

orthodox Christianity, the practice handed down through the ages.
What's yours, because it is not known through church history and cannot be found.

Mine is the "Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".
It is written of in the bible, but invisible to those who love sin more than they love God.

[luchnia]

If you want to set the low bar of allowing "mistakes and errors" to not be sin in order to boast that you are sin free, you can do so. But you're only deceiving yourself. More importantly you are held accountable for those that follow you in accepting anything less than perfection as acceptable to the Holy God.

I thank God that that His word does not teach mistakes and errors from a child of God are sins.