Dake Bible Discussion BoardWhat is "SIN"

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Errors

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:26 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:08 pm
I believe that errors are sins.

The first mention of the word "error" that I can find in the Bible is here:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 New King James Version
And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Errors are punishable by death. The wages of sin is death.

Is there any biblical reason to think that errors are not sins?
I guess there are no baseball players going to heaven.
Pitchers throw dozens of "mistaken" balls every night.
Sinners?
I think not.
I don't think errors, or mistakes, are sins, because they are not intentional efforts to achieve something.
Their idolatry, not their mistake, would be the sin.
I don't know of any pro baseball players that meet the criteria that you teach concerning going to Heaven. So, why worry about the small stuff?


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Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:15 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:33 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:19 pm
Ever heard of "Forgive and forget"?
Is that in the Bible?
Yes, "that" is in the bible.
Here is an example..."Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God." (Isa 50:10)

An NT verse that closely approximates "Forgive and forget" is..."Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."
(Rom 4:7)...quoted from Ps 32:1.
Where is the FORGET part?



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luchnia
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Re: Errors

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:08 pm
I believe that errors are sins.

The first mention of the word "error" that I can find in the Bible is here:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 New King James Version
And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Errors are punishable by death. The wages of sin is death.

Is there any biblical reason to think that errors are not sins?
Wasn't this because he disobeyed the direct order of God that the ark was not to be touched in any circumstance? God's anger was aroused. An error by disobeying a command is very different than someone making a mistake.

If God tells someone not to do something and they do it, that is disobeying, yet even at times that was overlooked. An elderly lady stubbing her toe is a mistake and if God did not tell her not to stub her toe all is well because she did not disobey God, except maybe her toe pain exist for a while.

Also consider physical death is not the same as spiritual death.


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luchnia
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Re: Errors

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:15 pm
Finally, for now, I would ask a few simple questions to those who think mistakes and errors are not sin.
Who gets to decide when a "mistake" or "error" is grievous enough to rise to the level of sin?
What if the well-intended "mistake" causes someone else to commit an easily recognizable sin?
Does that mistake now rise to the "sin" level?
In my view, Jesus never stated anything that would suggest a mistake, as we define the word mistake, as a sin. If one understands the spirit and nature of sin it is not a struggle understanding what sin is and who its master is. The bible explains sin and sin's master well as well as the different natures between unrighteous and righteous works.

Consider the spirit that is darkened by sin and its intent. Even temptation is not sin as we see in James and anger is not sin as we see in Luke, yet some would make these sin in their brothers and sisters. Can they become sin? Certainly. It is about the intent of the spirit of man when following a heart/spirit of darkness.

None of this should be that difficult to understand for a child of God because they are born again from above and have put off the old man and have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust. They walk in a different spirit with different direction. A spirit that aligns with the fruit of the Spirit that can see works of unrighteousness for what they are. The same Spirit that hates evil.

The works of evil flesh are manifest as Paul explains in Galatians - adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, everllings, and such like. Paul maintained his points about the evil unrighteous acts and the end of such things.

Those with the evil darkened spirit will not inherit the kingdom of God as Paul explained. Sinners love darkness because they are evil and serve satan their master. Those that sin hate the light and don't come to it.

An elderly lady that confesses with her mouth and believes in her heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and stubs her toe does not love darkness, nor has an evil spirit of satan because she has made a mistake and stubbed her toe.


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Re: Errors

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:16 am
Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:15 pm
Finally, for now, I would ask a few simple questions to those who think mistakes and errors are not sin.
Who gets to decide when a "mistake" or "error" is grievous enough to rise to the level of sin?
What if the well-intended "mistake" causes someone else to commit an easily recognizable sin?
Does that mistake now rise to the "sin" level?
In my view, Jesus never stated anything that would suggest a mistake, as we define the word mistake, as a sin. If one understands the spirit and nature of sin it is not a struggle understanding what sin is and who its master is. The bible explains sin and sin's master well as well as the different natures between unrighteous and righteous works.
Interesting comment. My first thought is why should one accept your view as the correct one? I believe Jesus did state that mistakes are sin in Matt 5:48 where he commanded "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." As you see, I do not appeal to "my view" of what God requires of us, instead I point to the words of Jesus Christ. And I might suggest we take Dake's position of taking the Bible literally when it can be reasonably done so and there is nothing here to suggest we take it otherwise.
luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:16 am
Consider the spirit that is darkened by sin and its intent. Even temptation is not sin as we see in James and anger is not sin as we see in Luke, yet some would make these sin in their brothers and sisters. Can they become sin? Certainly. It is about the intent of the spirit of man when following a heart/spirit of darkness.
You have a point, temptation is not always a sin, neither is anger. I will agree. The question was at what point does temptation, anger, bitterness turn from "mistakes" and "errors" to SIN? And while I value your opinion, I would rather put my faith in God's word.
luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:16 am
None of this should be that difficult to understand for a child of God because they are born again from above and have put off the old man and have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust. They walk in a different spirit with different direction...

An elderly lady that confesses with her mouth and believes in her heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and stubs her toe does not love darkness, nor has an evil spirit of satan because she has made a mistake and stubbed her toe.
I agree, none of this should be difficult for a child of God to understand, the command was to be perfect as He is perfect. Anything short of that standard is unacceptable. Mistakes and Errors as you call them miss the mark (sin) of the standard that God himself set.

Please read and re-read my postings. I have not implied, stated, suggested, hinted, etc. that believers who make, what you call "mistakes" or "errors" and I call sin, have an evil spirit. Nor have I suggested they suddenly became unsaved when they did. Any idea that you may have that leads to that conclusion of their eternal state comes from your theological view, not mine.

What I have stated is that these things you call "mistakes" are sin. (or the results of sin, we live in a fallen world, bad things happen to good and godly people.)

So, I will repeat my answer to my questions. Not with opinion, but with God's Word.
Matts 5:48 -Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Does our heaven Father stub his toe at night? Does he lock himself out of the throneroom of glory? Does he make spelling or research errors? Does he ever miss the target that he throws a ball at? I don't think so.

We can discuss how God deals with this "little sins" that we call errors and mistakes at another time, or in another thread, but for now let us call them for what they are. SIN.



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Re: Errors

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:39 am
So, I will repeat my answer to my questions. Not with opinion, but with God's Word.
Matts 5:48 -Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Does our heaven Father stub his toe at night? Does he lock himself out of the throneroom of glory? Does he make spelling or research errors? Does he ever miss the target that he throws a ball at? I don't think so.

We can discuss how God deals with this "little sins" that we call errors and mistakes at another time, or in another thread, but for now let us call them for what they are. SIN.
As you perceive those scriptures to mean what you believe (your answers) is your view or opinion based on your understanding. My perception of those texts differ from yours based on my understanding. You have your understanding, I have mine. To you those scriptures indicate that your mistakes are sins, to me they do not indicate my mistakes are sins.


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Re: Errors

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:33 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:08 pm
I believe that errors are sins.

The first mention of the word "error" that I can find in the Bible is here:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 New King James Version
And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Errors are punishable by death. The wages of sin is death.

Is there any biblical reason to think that errors are not sins?
Wasn't this because he disobeyed the direct order of God that the ark was not to be touched in any circumstance? God's anger was aroused. An error by disobeying a command is very different than someone making a mistake.

If God tells someone not to do something and they do it, that is disobeying, yet even at times that was overlooked. An elderly lady stubbing her toe is a mistake and if God did not tell her not to stub her toe all is well because she did not disobey God, except maybe her toe pain exist for a while.

Also consider physical death is not the same as spiritual death.
Absolutely, physical death isn't the same as spiritual death.

I don't think God ever authorized the carrying of the ark on a cart, either. Yet, no one died for this.

Do we know if Uzzah actually knew the law concerning not touching the ark? The Bible's use of the word "error" concerning this makes me think Uzzah may not have known.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
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Grandfather
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Re: Errors

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:00 am
Grandfather wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:39 am
So, I will repeat my answer to my questions. Not with opinion, but with God's Word.
Matts 5:48 -Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Does our heaven Father stub his toe at night? Does he lock himself out of the throneroom of glory? Does he make spelling or research errors? Does he ever miss the target that he throws a ball at? I don't think so.

We can discuss how God deals with this "little sins" that we call errors and mistakes at another time, or in another thread, but for now let us call them for what they are. SIN.
As you perceive those scriptures to mean what you believe (your answers) is your view or opinion based on your understanding. My perception of those texts differ from yours based on my understanding. You have your understanding, I have mine. To you those scriptures indicate that your mistakes are sins, to me they do not indicate my mistakes are sins.
OK I give up. How do you interpret Matt4? When Jesus says be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. What do you think he means.



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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Grandfather wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:44 am
What is "SIN"
Proverbs 21:4 New King James Version
A haughty look, a proud heart,
And the plowing of the wicked are sin.
As I was thinking about this question, earlier this week, this verse kept coming to mind. Haughty? Check. Proud? Check?

But, "plowing"?

Why is "the plowing of the wicked sin"? Righteous people also plow.

On this verse, I checked Wesley's commentary.
Verse 4. The plowing - Even their civil or natural actions, which in themselves are lawful, are made sinful as they are managed by ungodly men, without any regard to the glory of God, which ought to be the end of all our actions.
So, any action that doesn't have the goal of glorifying God is sinful. Thus, all the actions of an unsaved person are sinful, even if they appear good. And, any action that doesn't have the goal of glorifying God is also sinful.

This reminds me of this verse:
Romans 14:23 New King James Version
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Any action that does not originate from faith is sinful. Dake notes that "One must know beyond all doubt or hesitation in his mind that what he allows is in perfect accord with the Word of God before he acts."

Being perfect as God is perfect appears to be a tall order to fulfill.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

Hill Top
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Re: Errors

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:07 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:26 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:08 pm
I believe that errors are sins.

The first mention of the word "error" that I can find in the Bible is here:

2 Samuel 6:6-7 New King James Version
And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Errors are punishable by death. The wages of sin is death.

Is there any biblical reason to think that errors are not sins?
I guess there are no baseball players going to heaven.
Pitchers throw dozens of "mistaken" balls every night.
Sinners?
I think not.
I don't think errors, or mistakes, are sins, because they are not intentional efforts to achieve something.
Their idolatry, not their mistake, would be the sin.
I don't know of any pro baseball players that meet the criteria that you teach concerning going to Heaven. So, why worry about the small stuff?
Is an accusation of sin because of a misspelled word. locking oneself out of the house, or some other mistake, a small thing?



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