Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Hill Top]

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows that men can sin whether saved or unsaved.

Reverend Dake taught from the Word that saved people can backslide.

Then Jesus saved us from nothing.
We are no better off than the OT Jews.
Sin, atone, sin, atone, sin, atone, adnauseum.
The only ones to profit from Jesus' suffering and death were the sacrificial animals.

The Jews awaited a Messiah, one to save them from the Romans.
But Jesus came to save them from a far worse enemy, sin.
He said the truth could free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
I believe the truth.

[Hill Top]

Only the fact that the seed of God cannot commit sin, as per 1 John 3:9.

Question. When someone is truly born again, can they sin?

According to the position you have put forth, someone born of the seed of God CANNOT commit sin. Even if they wanted to they CANNOT, which is vastly different from WILL NOT or SHOULD NOT.

So, if one sins, they have never been born again, and those that are born again cannot sin. So, you also believe in OSAS.

From the looks of your statements I am not sure how much of thread you have been tracking. HT does not understand some basic fundamental principles about seed, sowing, soil, abiding, remaining, and so on. You can pick up on it by the many, many posts in this thread and other threads.

In view of your "basic fundamental principals", can you make a peach tree create potatoes?
That is what you infer by saying the seed of God can bring forth sin.

One born of God, just as one abiding in Christ, doesn't sin. Can they sin? Absolutly, but one must understand how this process would take place to give birth to sin and what happens to the seed of God when that conception is made. A simple read of the rest of the verses in 1 John will suffice as well as some other related context.

You seem to be hung up on the term "cannot" from 1 John 3:9.
Otherwise we are in agreement.
If a man claims to be reborn of God, he will not commit sin.
If he does, he can quit saying he was reborn of God....right?

We should not be deceived, if we do righteous and abide in Christ we do not sin, if we fall to sin we are of the devil. The children of God are manifested in this righteousness because we are born of God. If a saint shut himself up to his brother, does God's love dwell in him? We know the answer to that is clearly no.

How is this different than "cannot commit sin"?
You've set the parameters and told the results...men born of God don't commit sin.

A question might be asked of HT of HOW he keeps God's seed in him that he cannot sin against God? That would be a lesson worth more value than all the gold a man could obtain.

Believe there is a God who will burn forever those that oppose Him.
The fear of God brings forth wisdom. Obedience. Love for all. Repentance from all sin permanently. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins and as entry into Christ's death...killing the old man and accommodating our resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life as new creatures born of God.

In short...love of God keeps me from committing sin.

[Hill Top]

Do you know what "they" are falling away from?
Pretending to be born of God.
Pretending they have faith.
Pretending they love Him above all else.
Pretending they love their neighbors as they love themselves.

They fell away from the eternal life they had when they were born again and saved and doing the work of Christ.

If they fell away from eternal life, and nothing can pluck them from Father's hand, how can they lose that eternal life?
They gave up on their repentance from sin and served something in place of God.
A false repentance is a lie to God.
We can't forge a relationship with Gd that is based on a lie.

[Hill Top]

That's just it, those born of God DON'T WANT TO.
Their old flesh pleasing nature was killed at it's "immersion" into the death of Christ.
We are reborn with a divine nature that does not accommodate sin.

Curious about clarity on something. So we know we have a new nature in Christ as we find in Eph 2 because we have put off the old man and put on the new. We are partakers of the divine nature.

Glad to see you put it that way.
If our old man/nature is gone, how can we serve sin? Ever?

So with your view, God's seed in you that you received when you were born again forces you to keep the new nature, correct? In other words, you cannot put off the new man in Christ no matter what you do? You simply are incapable of choosing sin any longer, correct? Your choice power where sin is concerned is completely gone because of God's seed?

We "cannot commit sin" if we want to BE reborn of God.
If we commit sin, we cannot claim to be reborn of God.
The Christian life STARTS with a turn from sin.
Without that repentance form sin, the Christian life never started.
I have the choice to keep calling my self "born of God", or not.

Fish cannot gender eagles.

[Hill Top]

I wrote, HillTop and others, we know the remnant of Jews who were saved before Christ were saved by faith because Paul tells us no one could be saved by keeping the law and it was impossible to keep the law. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. If we have a better covenant why do we have to keep the law to be saved??? Doesn't add up. And how could you be saved by keeping the law if it is impossible to keep the law?? Therefore, is it not safe to say people are saved by believing God just as Abraham and the Jews were saved. The "better covenant" Paul speaks of is referring to the fact that it is written on our hearts and that way much easier to keep AND we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, convicting us of sin righteousness and judgment. God gave the law to the Jews because their sin was over the top, for a lack of better words.

Hilltop replied, Where did you get the idea that we must keep the Law in the NT?

My reply, I was referring to the 1050 N.T. commandments. These 1050 commandments or laws of God make up the two most important laws of loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Hilltop, upon being born again a baby Christian begins renewing their mind as in Rom. 12:2. You are saying you reversed this order and renewed your mind to 100% perfection so that you would not sin AFTER you were born again. It is a monumental task to proceed in the normal sequence but to learn God's Way before you were born again without the help of the Holy Spirit has never been done and only Jesus did it after agreeing to take on the mission from the Father. Your claims appear to be arrogant and unbelievable. In 2,000 years of Christian history you are the only person I have ever heard of claiming to have never sinned after being born again. Even to say you have is an act of pride, IMHO.

Dolph, I'm going off topic for a sec...
You should surround the paragraph(s) you are responding to with

paragraph

in order to avoid the "HT wrote"..."I replied"...parts of your posts.
It'll save you some time.

[Hill Top]

I wrote, HillTop and others, we know the remnant of Jews who were saved before Christ were saved by faith because Paul tells us no one could be saved by keeping the law and it was impossible to keep the law. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. If we have a better covenant why do we have to keep the law to be saved??? Doesn't add up. And how could you be saved by keeping the law if it is impossible to keep the law?? Therefore, is it not safe to say people are saved by believing God just as Abraham and the Jews were saved. The "better covenant" Paul speaks of is referring to the fact that it is written on our hearts and that way much easier to keep AND we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, convicting us of sin righteousness and judgment. God gave the law to the Jews because their sin was over the top, for a lack of better words.

Hilltop replied, Where did you get the idea that we must keep the Law in the NT?

My reply, I was referring to the 1050 N.T. commandments. These 1050 commandments or laws of God make up the two most important laws of loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Hilltop, upon being born again a baby Christian begins renewing their mind as in Rom. 12:2. You are saying you reversed this order and renewed your mind to 100% perfection so that you would not sin AFTER you were born again. It is a monumental task to proceed in the normal sequence but to learn God's Way before you were born again without the help of the Holy Spirit has never been done and only Jesus did it after agreeing to take on the mission from the Father. Your claims appear to be arrogant and unbelievable. In 2,000 years of Christian history you are the only person I have ever heard of claiming to have never sinned after being born again. Even to say you have is an act of pride, IMHO.

Dolph, I'm going off topic for a sec...
You should surround the paragraph(s) you are responding to with [q uote]paragraph[/qu ote] in order to avoid the "HT wrote"..."I replied"...parts of your posts.
It'll save you some time.

[Hill Top]

I wrote, HillTop and others, we know the remnant of Jews who were saved before Christ were saved by faith because Paul tells us no one could be saved by keeping the law and it was impossible to keep the law. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. If we have a better covenant why do we have to keep the law to be saved??? Doesn't add up. And how could you be saved by keeping the law if it is impossible to keep the law?? Therefore, is it not safe to say people are saved by believing God just as Abraham and the Jews were saved. The "better covenant" Paul speaks of is referring to the fact that it is written on our hearts and that way much easier to keep AND we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, convicting us of sin righteousness and judgment. God gave the law to the Jews because their sin was over the top, for a lack of better words.
Hilltop replied, Where did you get the idea that we must keep the Law in the NT?
My reply, I was referring to the 1050 N.T. commandments. These 1050 commandments or laws of God make up the two most important laws of loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

You could have reversed your format to read as Jesus spoke it..."On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22:40)

Hilltop, upon being born again a baby Christian begins renewing their mind as in Rom. 12:2.

My mind was "transformed" with the rest of me at my rebirth after repentance from sin.
Nothing of the old me remained after it was killed at my baptism into the death and burial with Christ. (2 Cor 5:17)..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

You are saying you reversed this order and renewed your mind to 100% perfection so that you would not sin AFTER you were born again.

I didn't renew anything, God did it at my rebirth as His child.

It is a monumental task to proceed in the normal sequence

What is the "normal" sequence?

but to learn God's Way before you were born again

As I said above, rebirth came first.
And even now, I pray to grow in grace and knowledge every day.

without the help of the Holy Spirit has never been done and only Jesus did it after agreeing to take on the mission from the Father. Your claims appear to be arrogant and unbelievable. In 2,000 years of Christian history you are the only person I have ever heard of claiming to have never sinned after being born again. Even to say you have is an act of pride, IMHO.

It is unbelievable, but not a claim I have made.

Dolph, I'm going off topic for a sec...
You should surround the paragraph(s) or sentence you are responding to with [q uote]paragraph[/qu ote] in order to avoid the "HT wrote"..."I replied"...parts of your posts.
It'll save you some time.
I had to create the blank spot in "quote" so it would show up on my post, so don'y leave a blank spot on your posts.

[luchnia]

So with your view, God's seed in you that you received when you were born again forces you to keep the new nature, correct? In other words, you cannot put off the new man in Christ no matter what you do? You simply are incapable of choosing sin any longer, correct? Your choice power where sin is concerned is completely gone because of God's seed?

We "cannot commit sin" if we want to BE reborn of God.
If we commit sin, we cannot claim to be reborn of God.
The Christian life STARTS with a turn from sin.
Without that repentance form sin, the Christian life never started.
I have the choice to keep calling my self "born of God", or not.

Fish cannot gender eagles.

If we WANT to BE reborn of God" You may want to clarify that statement. If we are already born again, why would we want to BE reborn of God?

Moving along further with your line of reasoning my guess is that you can be tempted (because Jesus was tempted in every way as a man), but not drawn away and enticed (Jame chap 1) because of the same nature that forces you to not choose sin (the seed that cannot sin no matter what soil it is in 1 Jn 3:9) and somehow that forced Jesus not to sin instead of His ability to choose not to sin because He is God's seed.

You only have one choice power within you and that is to call yourself born of God whether you are or not. With the seed of God you have only been given this one choice power. So by you giving voice to "born of God" that is the key that forces you not to sin against whatever you may will in your heart to do, or even if your fruit may dictate otherwise.

You say if we "want" which indicates a desire. The seed of God should control your desire and there is no want involved. It is matter of fact the seed of God cannot sin so the desire to sin would not exist, so you cannot be drawn away and sin cannot be birthed in you.

Based on your reasoning about the seed of God, desire does not come into play because the seed of God is in control of your choices as you put it, you have the choice to call yourself born of God. It is a fascinating concept.

[Hill Top]

So with your view, God's seed in you that you received when you were born again forces you to keep the new nature, correct? In other words, you cannot put off the new man in Christ no matter what you do? You simply are incapable of choosing sin any longer, correct? Your choice power where sin is concerned is completely gone because of God's seed?

We "cannot commit sin" if we want to BE reborn of God.
If we commit sin, we cannot claim to be reborn of God.
The Christian life STARTS with a turn from sin.
Without that repentance form sin, the Christian life never started.
I have the choice to keep calling my self "born of God", or not.

Fish cannot gender eagles.

If we WANT to BE reborn of God" You may want to clarify that statement. If we are already born again, why would we want to BE reborn of God?

Moving along further with your line of reasoning my guess is that you can be tempted (because Jesus was tempted in every way as a man), but not drawn away and enticed (Jame chap 1) because of the same nature that forces you to not choose sin (the seed that cannot sin no matter what soil it is in 1 Jn 3:9) and somehow that forced Jesus not to sin instead of His ability to choose not to sin because He is God's seed.

You only have one choice power within you and that is to call yourself born of God whether you are or not. With the seed of God you have only been given this one choice power. So by you giving voice to "born of God" that is the key that forces you not to sin against whatever you may will in your heart to do, or even if your fruit may dictate otherwise.

You say if we "want" which indicates a desire. The seed of God should control your desire and there is no want involved. It is matter of fact the seed of God cannot sin so the desire to sin would not exist, so you cannot be drawn away and sin cannot be birthed in you.

Based on your reasoning about the seed of God, desire does not come into play because the seed of God is in control of your choices as you put it, you have the choice to call yourself born of God. It is a fascinating concept.

[Hill Top]

So with your view, God's seed in you that you received when you were born again forces you to keep the new nature, correct? In other words, you cannot put off the new man in Christ no matter what you do? You simply are incapable of choosing sin any longer, correct? Your choice power where sin is concerned is completely gone because of God's seed?

We "cannot commit sin" if we want to BE reborn of God.
If we commit sin, we cannot claim to be reborn of God.
The Christian life STARTS with a turn from sin.
Without that repentance form sin, the Christian life never started.
I have the choice to keep calling my self "born of God", or not.

Fish cannot gender eagles.

If we WANT to BE reborn of God" You may want to clarify that statement. If we are already born again, why would we want to BE reborn of God?

Perhaps I should have worded it this way..."We "cannot commit sin" if we want to be perceived by God or men as reborn".
Or "We "cannot commit sin" if want to meet the parameters of rebirth.

Moving along further with your line of reasoning my guess is that you can be tempted (because Jesus was tempted in every way as a man), but not drawn away and enticed (Jame chap 1) because of the same nature that forces you to not choose sin (the seed that cannot sin no matter what soil it is in 1 Jn 3:9) and somehow that forced Jesus not to sin instead of His ability to choose not to sin because He is God's seed.

Of course I am tempted, and you are correct about the rest of your post too.
Instead of using the word "forces", however, I prefer "allows", or, "enables" me to resist temptation and thereby sin.

You only have one choice power within you and that is to call yourself born of God whether you are or not.

The only reason to lie about it is for false glory.
I can't think of another reason to pretend I am born of God.

With the seed of God you have only been given this one choice power.

With the seed of God in me, there is no other option.
And I praise and honor God for allowing me an option sinners don't have.

So by you giving voice to "born of God" that is the key that forces you not to sin against whatever you may will in your heart to do, or even if your fruit may dictate otherwise.

My "fruit" can't represent the devil.
I can't bear the fruit of a foreign seed.
BTW, my new heart never wills to commit sin.

You say if we "want" which indicates a desire. The seed of God should control your desire and there is no want involved. It is matter of fact the seed of God cannot sin so the desire to sin would not exist, so you cannot be drawn away and sin cannot be birthed in you.

I can't determine what my "want" comment was in regard to without your help here.
But you are right about "desire to sin would not exist".
It doesn't.

Based on your reasoning about the seed of God, desire does not come into play because the seed of God is in control of your choices as you put it, you have the choice to call yourself born of God. It is a fascinating concept.

I do have to want to resist temptation, if I want to continue to call myself "born of God".
If I quit caring about God, (really a sign of having not been previously reborn), I will quit wanting to serve only one God.

Isn't life about satisfying what we "want"?
I wanted that "good conscience before God", from 1 Peter 3:21, more than anything on earth at the start of my walk.
I still want it.
What do you "want"?