Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[branham1965]

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows that men can sin whether saved or unsaved.

Reverend Dake taught from the Word that saved people can backslide.

[luchnia]

Only the fact that the seed of God cannot commit sin, as per 1 John 3:9.

Question. When someone is truly born again, can they sin?

According to the position you have put forth, someone born of the seed of God CANNOT commit sin. Even if they wanted to they CANNOT, which is vastly different from WILL NOT or SHOULD NOT.

So, if one sins, they have never been born again, and those that are born again cannot sin. So, you also believe in OSAS.

From the looks of your statements I am not sure how much of thread you have been tracking. HT does not understand some basic fundamental principles about seed, sowing, soil, abiding, remaining, and so on. You can pick up on it by the many, many posts in this thread and other threads.

Even a simple fact such as the seed of God cannot commit sin has little to do with understanding what a person can do to and with that seed, but one would have to understand the other fundamentals to receive this and understand how it works.

One born of God, just as one abiding in Christ, doesn't sin. Can they sin? Absolutly, but one must understand how this process would take place to give birth to sin and what happens to the seed of God when that conception is made. A simple read of the rest of the verses in 1 John will suffice as well as some other related context.

We should not be deceived, if we do righteous and abide in Christ we do not sin, if we fall to sin we are of the devil. The children of God are manifested in this righteousness because we are born of God. If a saint shut himself up to his brother, does God's love dwell in him? We know the answer to that is clearly no.

We purify ourselves through the hope of knowing we shall be like Jesus, yet as John wrote it had not appeared what they shall be. Jesus was manifested to take our sins away and He did so and there is no sin in Him, but this boils down to abiding and remaining in Him. Serving a different master is not abiding in Christ.

You probably already know all of this as your texts indicate you have good knowledge of God's word. The man made doctrine that a saint cannot fall is not to be found in God's word unless one pulls certain verses out of context to build that doctrine.

A question might be asked of HT of HOW he keeps God's seed in him that he cannot sin against God? That would be a lesson worth more value than all the gold a man could obtain.

[luchnia]

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows that men can sin whether saved or unsaved.

Reverend Dake taught from the Word that saved people can backslide.

Yes, Dake taught saved people can backslide and please don't mistake the fact that he was clear that the person in sin, or committing sin, was NOT a saved saint, but a child of the devil doomed separated from eternal life with God - spiritual death. Dake taught that one sin would damn the soul. The word "can" in your first statement is imperative. Any person can sin, yet there is a process that has to occur.

The statement that people can backslide is spot on. All we have to understand is what does it mean to backslide of fall away? To backslide you have to be at a point to backslide from. Dake did not teach the sinning-saint lie that saints go around sinning all the time. That cannot happen because one born again of God cannot sin because God's seed. This is very different from a saint falling away. Whosoever is born of God does not sin as Dake shows in his teaching.

The danger of falling away is ever present as we see how easy it was for some of the born again saints in God's word. I am reminded of the two fell away to follow the evil one and lied to God and found their demise. There are many examples, yet that was one that quickly came to my mind.

[Hill Top]

Only the fact that the seed of God cannot commit sin, as per 1 John 3:9.

Question. When someone is truly born again, can they sin?
According to the position you have put forth, someone born of the seed of God CANNOT commit sin. Even if they wanted to they CANNOT, which is vastly different from WILL NOT or SHOULD NOT.

That's just it, those born of God DON'T WANT TO.
Their old flesh pleasing nature was killed at it's "immersion" into the death of Christ.
We are reborn with a divine nature that does not accommodate sin.

So, if one sins, they have never been born again, and those that are born again cannot sin. So, you also believe in OSAS.

In this context, yes.

From the looks of your statements I am not sure how much of thread you have been tracking. HT does not understand some basic fundamental principles about seed, sowing, soil, abiding, remaining, and so on. You can pick up on it by the many, many posts in this thread and other threads.

A seed from a fig tree planted in concrete cannot bear anything but figs.

Even a simple fact such as the seed of God cannot commit sin has little to do with understanding what a person can do to and with that seed, but one would have to understand the other fundamentals to receive this and understand how it works.

Can a fig tree bear onions or wheat?
You seem to be misunderstanding the truth of this as the Pharisees were.
Why did Jesus use this idea in His parables?
To show the sinners that they were NOT born of God.
That has never changed.
That which is born of God cannot bear the devil's fruit.

One born of God, just as one abiding in Christ, doesn't sin. Can they sin? Absolutly, but one must understand how this process would take place to give birth to sin and what happens to the seed of God when that conception is made. A simple read of the rest of the verses in 1 John will suffice as well as some other related context.

They cannot...if they are born of God and abiding in Christ.
They can, however, reveal who they are really born of by their sinfulness/fruit.

We should not be deceived, if we do righteous and abide in Christ we do not sin, if we fall to sin we are of the devil. The children of God are manifested in this righteousness because we are born of God. If a saint shut himself up to his brother, does God's love dwell in him? We know the answer to that is clearly no.

Neither would they be "saints".

We purify ourselves through the hope of knowing we shall be like Jesus, yet as John wrote it had not appeared what they shall be. Jesus was manifested to take our sins away and He did so and there is no sin in Him, but this boils down to abiding and remaining in Him. Serving a different master is not abiding in Christ.

Agreed.

You probably already know all of this as your texts indicate you have good knowledge of God's word. The man made doctrine that a saint cannot fall is not to be found in God's word unless one pulls certain verses out of context to build that doctrine.

The actions of a man reveal from whom they have received their seed.

A question might be asked of HT of HOW he keeps God's seed in him that he cannot sin against God? That would be a lesson worth more value than all the gold a man could obtain.

By remaining obedient to God.
By staying in the writings passed down to us.
By believing God when He gives us things like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes !

[Hill Top]

The Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows that men can sin whether saved or unsaved.

Reverend Dake taught from the Word that saved people can backslide.

Yes, Dake taught saved people can backslide and please don't mistake the fact that he was clear that the person in sin, or committing sin, was NOT a saved saint, but a child of the devil doomed separated from eternal life with God - spiritual death. Dake taught that one sin would damn the soul. The word "can" in your first statement is imperative. Any person can sin, yet there is a process that has to occur.

The statement that people can backslide is spot on. All we have to understand is what does it mean to backslide of fall away? To backslide you have to be at a point to backslide from. Dake did not teach the sinning-saint lie that saints go around sinning all the time. That cannot happen because one born again of God cannot sin because God's seed. This is very different from a saint falling away. Whosoever is born of God does not sin as Dake shows in his teaching.

The danger of falling away is ever present as we see how easy it was for some of the born again saints in God's word. I am reminded of the two fell away to follow the evil one and lied to God and found their demise. There are many examples, yet that was one that quickly came to my mind.

Do you know what "they" are falling away from?
Pretending to be born of God.
Pretending they have faith.
Pretending they love Him above all else.
Pretending they love their neighbors as they love themselves.

[Hill Top]

HillTop and others, we know the remnant of Jews who were saved before Christ were saved by faith because Paul tells us no one could be saved by keeping the law and it was impossible to keep the law. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. If we have a better covenant why do we have to keep the law to be saved??? Doesn't add up. And how could you be saved by keeping the law if it is impossible to keep the law?? Therefore, is it not safe to say people are saved by believing God just as Abraham and the Jews were saved. The "better covenant" Paul speaks of is referring to the fact that it is written on our hearts and that way much easier to keep AND we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, convicting us of sin righteousness and judgment. God gave the law to the Jews because their sin was over the top, for a lack of better words.

Cutting the list of commandments from hundreds down to two didn't hurt either.

[luchnia]

Do you know what "they" are falling away from?
Pretending to be born of God.
Pretending they have faith.
Pretending they love Him above all else.
Pretending they love their neighbors as they love themselves.

They fell away from the eternal life they had when they were born again and saved and doing the work of Christ.

[luchnia]

That's just it, those born of God DON'T WANT TO.
Their old flesh pleasing nature was killed at it's "immersion" into the death of Christ.
We are reborn with a divine nature that does not accommodate sin.

Curious about clarity on something. So we know we have a new nature in Christ as we find in Eph 2 because we have put off the old man and put on the new. We are partakers of the divine nature.

So with your view, God's seed in you that you received when you were born again forces you to keep the new nature, correct? In other words, you cannot put off the new man in Christ no matter what you do? You simply are incapable of choosing sin any longer, correct? Your choice power where sin is concerned is completely gone because of God's seed?

[Hill Top]

Hilltop wrote, "If the seed of God is in them, it is impossible for them to commit sin."
Reply, What about Judas, Peter, David, Demos?

I answered this earlier, but will again...Judas, Peter, David all had the tenets of the Mosaic Law, ie blood atonements for sin.
Rebirth was not available to accommodate a walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Demos?
Just another unreborn sinner who made his preferences known after a time of faking love for God and brother.

HT wrote, "Cutting the list of commandments from hundreds down to two didn't hurt either."
Reply, Dake said there were 1050 commandments in the N.T.

Circumcision and dietary laws are no longer an issue for the NT converts to the light.
However, loving God above all else and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves is.

Hilltop, you couldn't answer my question? Paul said no one has ever kept the commandments and it is impossible to keep the commandments or law.

He was right, as they were given to men walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Thankfully, God supplied days of atonements and sacrifices for sin in the OT for men to re-approach Him.

[Hill Top]

HillTop and others, we know the remnant of Jews who were saved before Christ were saved by faith because Paul tells us no one could be saved by keeping the law and it was impossible to keep the law. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. If we have a better covenant why do we have to keep the law to be saved??? Doesn't add up. And how could you be saved by keeping the law if it is impossible to keep the law?? Therefore, is it not safe to say people are saved by believing God just as Abraham and the Jews were saved. The "better covenant" Paul speaks of is referring to the fact that it is written on our hearts and that way much easier to keep AND we have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth, convicting us of sin righteousness and judgment. God gave the law to the Jews because their sin was over the top, for a lack of better words.

Where did you get the idea that we must keep the Law in the NT?