Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Hill Top]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Interesting thought, but I don't think there is a middle-ground on this.

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

I feel the only use for this doctrine is the continuation of sin.
It releases the 'believer' from the fear of God.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Personally, I don't believe any sin is an accident. Especially in the light of James 1:14-15.
It just takes too many conscious steps to reach "conception".

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

It is secure, if one loves God above all else and their neighbor as themselves...until the end.

What I find interesting is that you mirrored the positions perfectly. You tended to the extremes in order to justify your position. I don't believe we should use extreme examples to justify positions.

Isn't loving God above all else "extreme"?
God's standards ARE extreme.
Christianity itself is extreme, as it separates us from the other extreme of the world's lusts and hate for God.
There is no "grey area" in Christianity.

Pardon me but if you loved God to the extreme don't you think that your fears would be gone? After all "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

I guess you missed option 3's description of fear.

And if there are no gray areas in Christianity then why are you scared that something MIGHT happen?
Seems that you have a theology and then you have the way you live which are two separate things.
Which in reality is sinful which you need to repent of and forsake!

As your intent seems only to cast doubt on my faith, I think we are done here.

"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps 2:11)

[luchnia]

As your intent seems only to cast doubt on my faith, I think we are done here.

"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps 2:11)

Knowing bibleman's post over the years, my guess is his intent is exposing the holes, or errors, in your doctrines. The whole word of God is the most important item. You have presented a number of doctrinal items of which bibleman and others have presented scripture that opposes your view.

Those scriptures get circumvented so that the support of the erroneous doctrines continue. There is something powerful that holds you in that closed defense position, and no, it is not God's seed in you doing that no matter how much you try to convince yourself of it.

Would you not desire the entire fullness of what God desires for you when it comes to doctrines that are relevant to your life before God? I know for me when it comes to doctrine I desire the fullness of understanding and guidance by Him in all things. There is a place of openness to His light that brings a richness hard to put into words on a simple chat forum.

[bibleman]

Pardon me but if you loved God to the extreme don't you think that your fears would be gone? After all "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

I guess you missed option 3's description of fear.

And if there are no gray areas in Christianity then why are you scared that something MIGHT happen?
Seems that you have a theology and then you have the way you live which are two separate things.
Which in reality is sinful which you need to repent of and forsake!

As your intent seems only to cast doubt on my faith, I think we are done here.

"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps 2:11)

My point is simple... You say one thing and live another way. I am trying to wake you up to that fact.

Everyone can see it, but you seem to be blinded to that fact or else just too proud to admit it.

The fact is: You can't be scared (Example: "eye surgery really scares me.") without having distrust.... which is doubting the Lord which of course is sinful.

Scripture teaches us: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for
thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Psalm 23:4

YOUR understanding of the verse is: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil (EXCEPT "eye surgery really scares me"): for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they (DO NOT) comfort me. Psalm 23:4

As long as you have that EXCEPTION you are not made perfect in love. Because: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

Your false claim to sinless perfection is debunked - You should repent and forsake you sin.

Why not repent and saturate yourself in the Word of God... that deals with His love, care and protection of His Children - so that you will no longer be scared and doubt God's love and care for you.

[Hill Top]

As your intent seems only to cast doubt on my faith, I think we are done here.

"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps 2:11)

Knowing bibleman's post over the years, my guess is his intent is exposing the holes, or errors, in your doctrines. The whole word of God is the most important item. You have presented a number of doctrinal items of which bibleman and others have presented scripture that opposes your view.

When you consider that "my" view is perfect obedience to God, from whence come the views that are anti-obedience to God?

Those scriptures get circumvented so that the support of the erroneous doctrines continue. There is something powerful that holds you in that closed defense position, and no, it is not God's seed in you doing that no matter how much you try to convince yourself of it.

Supply the verses he used, please, and we will judge them in order.

Would you not desire the entire fullness of what God desires for you when it comes to doctrines that are relevant to your life before God? I know for me when it comes to doctrine I desire the fullness of understanding and guidance by Him in all things. There is a place of openness to His light that brings a richness hard to put into words on a simple chat forum.

What, exactly, do you suppose God wants all men to do with "the fullness of understanding and guidance by Him in all things"?
Isn't it to "love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves"?
Is there something you want that is in addition to that?

[Hill Top]

Pardon me but if you loved God to the extreme don't you think that your fears would be gone? After all "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

I guess you missed option 3's description of fear.
And if there are no gray areas in Christianity then why are you scared that something MIGHT happen?
Seems that you have a theology and then you have the way you live which are two separate things.
Which in reality is sinful which you need to repent of and forsake!
As your intent seems only to cast doubt on my faith, I think we are done here.
"Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling." (Ps 2:11)

My point is simple... You say one thing and live another way. I am trying to wake you up to that fact.

You are essentially saying that Jesus was acting unChristian while He feared in the Garden of Gethsemane.
You can't blame me for...whatever it is... without including Christ Jesus in your blanket.

Everyone can see it, but you seem to be blinded to that fact or else just too proud to admit it.

Does "everyone" also see that Jesus also 'feared'?

The fact is: You can't be scared (Example: "eye surgery really scares me.") without having distrust.... which is doubting the Lord which of course is sinful.

Did Jesus "distrust" God while he sweated drops like blood being shed?
That IS what you are saying.

Scripture teaches us: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for
thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Psalm 23:4

Hmmmm.
What evil is associated with eye surgery?

YOUR understanding of the verse is: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil (EXCEPT "eye surgery really scares me"): for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they (DO NOT) comfort me. Psalm 23:4

Doesn't "comfort" need the fear in order to be manifested?
Why else would the verse even be written?

As long as you have that EXCEPTION you are not made perfect in love. Because: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

Better check your context there, as it is our judgement we are not to fear.

Your false claim to sinless perfection is debunked - You should repent and forsake you sin.

To what end?
To be sinlessly perfect?
And if I do "repent" will you keep on trying to tear down my faith?

Why not repent and saturate yourself in the Word of God... that deals with His love, care and protection of His Children - so that you will no longer be scared and doubt God's love and care for you.

I'm visualizing you presenting this argument to the fearful Jesus in the Garden.
It doesn't go over well....

[luchnia]

You tended to the extremes in order to justify your position. I don't believe we should use extreme examples to justify positions.

Great point and it takes a lot for most to change from this because our spirit wants to make what we know 100% correct, even if it isn't. It is a difficult challenge and one that takes a complete openness to God's word and wisdom from above.

It is amazing how the majority of scriptures around a topic can be tossed away to justify a position based on misunderstanding one scripture instead of reconciling the text and understanding what is meant. If we reason good together we still may come out with different perceptions but in the long run we have done a much better job in our understanding, even if we hold disagreement on the topic. Being unmovable and holding on to error still keeps one in error.

As we see in this case the choice to justify an extreme position does lend to make it easy for others to see the problem in doing that, which should help others grow in their understanding and how to approach these issues. I don't think many people view this board, but maybe something can still come out of these threads that is worthwhile for others.

[luchnia]

When you consider that "my" view is perfect obedience to God, from whence come the views that are anti-obedience to God?
>>>How is your view perfect obedience to God? Maybe the rest of us do not see your obedience the way that you do.

Supply the verses he used, please, and we will judge them in order.
>>>We did. They were circumvented, not posting them again. You are welcome to go back and pull them all back up if you wish.

What, exactly, do you suppose God wants all men to do with "the fullness of understanding and guidance by Him in all things"?
Isn't it to "love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves"?
Is there something you want that is in addition to that?

>>>Certainly you are not implying we don't need the rest of God's word?

[Hill Top]

When you consider that "my" view is perfect obedience to God, from whence come the views that are anti-obedience to God?
>>>How is your view perfect obedience to God? Maybe the rest of us do not see your obedience the way that you do.

"My" views of a scripture, like "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God..", is just my view.
Those holding opposing views must show why they disagree.
And why does "my" behavior nullify the scripture?
You are free to judge me as not aligned with the scripture, but never that it is the scripture that is an error.
If those born of God cannot commit sin because His seed is in them, why are you trying to make it say something else?

Supply the verses he used, please, and we will judge them in order.
>>>We did. They were circumvented, not posting them again. You are welcome to go back and pull them all back up if you wish.

No thanks.

What, exactly, do you suppose God wants all men to do with "the fullness of understanding and guidance by Him in all things"?
Isn't it to "love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves"?
Is there something you want that is in addition to that?

>>>Certainly you are not implying we don't need the rest of God's word?

Answer the question instead of trying to derail it.

[Grandfather]

Only the fact that the seed of God cannot commit sin, as per 1 John 3:9.

Question. When someone is truly born again, can they sin?

According to the position you have put forth, someone born of the seed of God CANNOT commit sin. Even if they wanted to they CANNOT, which is vastly different from WILL NOT or SHOULD NOT.

So, if one sins, they have never been born again, and those that are born again cannot sin. So, you also believe in OSAS.

[Hill Top]

Only the fact that the seed of God cannot commit sin, as per 1 John 3:9.

Question. When someone is truly born again, can they sin?

No.

According to the position you have put forth, someone born of the seed of God CANNOT commit sin. Even if they wanted to they CANNOT, which is vastly different from WILL NOT or SHOULD NOT.

If the seed of God is in them, it is impossible for them to commit sin.
If the seed of God is in them, they have a new nature that never "wants to" commit sin.

So, if one sins, they have never been born again, and those that are born again cannot sin. So, you also believe in OSAS.

In this context...I do.