Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Question: Who on this board believes they are divine?

[bibleman]

Who else would you say is responsible for the problem?

The fact that different groups think the Bible means different things... does not change the clear meaning of Scripture itself.
We can't yield to the idea the the Bible means different things to different groups. If people disagree with the Bible then of course they are wrong.

I'd lean towards Adam being responsible. See Romans 5:12-21.

Regarding "the clear meaning of Scripture..."
Each group thinks the others are in disagreement with the Bible, so of course, the other groups are wrong.

Adam was tempted by Eve... and Eve was tempted by the Devil... who was the source of the deception.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Adam was tempted by Eve... and Eve was tempted by the Devil... who was the source of the deception.

Who is responsible for giving into the temptation? The tempter or the temptee?
Remember, Adam was not deceived. Eve was, but Adam was not. See 1st Timothy 2:14.

[bibleman]

Adam was tempted by Eve... and Eve was tempted by the Devil... who was the source of the deception.

Who is responsible for giving into the temptation? The tempter or the temptee?
Remember, Adam was not deceived. Eve was, but Adam was not. See 1st Timothy 2:14.

No Adam was not deceived. He clearly and directly sinned due to his love of his wife Eve.
So of course Adam is responsible for his sin.
BUT it is a sin that would have never happened had their not be the source of his temptation which was the devil.

So coming back full circle, the reason that men: "will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2 Tim 4:3)" is a direct result of the deceptions of the devil.

Bottom line Satan is the creator and originator of sin. And acting as a deceiver, you will always find him at the beginning of all of man's rebellion.

I think Jesus pretty well summed this up in John.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

No Adam was not deceived. He clearly and directly sinned due to his love of his wife Eve.
So of course Adam is responsible for his sin.
BUT it is a sin that would have never happened had their not be the source of his temptation which was the devil.

1. How do we know that Adam committed this sin out of love? What Bible verse supports this idea?

2. Why didn't Adam stop or at least try to prevent Eve from eating? Was he not there, with her, when the serpent tempted her? See Gensis 3:6, where upon Dake notes, "Adam was with her and therefore without excuse (cp. 1Tim. 2:14). He should have spoken up and protected his mate and his dominion. See note on Gen. 2:15." Adam's first sin was not eating of the forbidden fruit.

He was already in sin prior to that, as Dake notes on 2:15, "Man’s duty was to cultivate and keep (preserve) the garden from all intruders. “Keep” is from the Hebrew shamar (HSN-<H8104>), to hedge about, guard, protect (Gen. 3:24; 6:19–20; 7:3; 17:9–10; 18:19; 28:15, 20; Ps. 17:8). This is the first hint of an enemy of God and man. Adam failed to “keep” the garden, so sin entered and Satan became the pseudo-ruler of the restored earth (Mt. 4:1–11; 12:24–25; Rom. 5:12–21; 2Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:10–18)."

3. How do we know that Adam would not have rebelled, even without the devil's temptation?

[bibleman]

No Adam was not deceived. He clearly and directly sinned due to his love of his wife Eve.
So of course Adam is responsible for his sin.
BUT it is a sin that would have never happened had their not be the source of his temptation which was the devil.

1. How do we know that Adam committed this sin out of love? What Bible verse supports this idea?

2. Why didn't Adam stop or at least try to prevent Eve from eating? Was he not there, with her, when the serpent tempted her? See Gensis 3:6, where upon Dake notes, "Adam was with her and therefore without excuse (cp. 1Tim. 2:14). He should have spoken up and protected his mate and his dominion. See note on Gen. 2:15." Adam's first sin was not eating of the forbidden fruit.

He was already in sin prior to that, as Dake notes on 2:15, "Man’s duty was to cultivate and keep (preserve) the garden from all intruders. “Keep” is from the Hebrew shamar (HSN-<H8104>), to hedge about, guard, protect (Gen. 3:24; 6:19–20; 7:3; 17:9–10; 18:19; 28:15, 20; Ps. 17:8). This is the first hint of an enemy of God and man. Adam failed to “keep” the garden, so sin entered and Satan became the pseudo-ruler of the restored earth (Mt. 4:1–11; 12:24–25; Rom. 5:12–21; 2Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:10–18)."

3. How do we know that Adam would not have rebelled, even without the devil's temptation?

I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

1. I know of no BIble verse that supports the idea that Adam sinned out of love for Eve. But, if he did, I believe the choice was made before the serpent was permitted to tempt Eve.

2. I believe Adam was in full rebellion before Eve was tempted and before the serpent entered the garden. He set Eve up and gave the tempter access to her.

3. Based upon Adam's choice to let the serpent into the garden and permit it to tempt Eve in his presence, I believe that Adam would have rebelled, even without the devil's temptation. Even if Eve had not been created.

[bibleman]

I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

1. I know of no BIble verse that supports the idea that Adam sinned out of love for Eve. But, if he did, I believe the choice was made before the serpent was permitted to tempt Eve.

2. I believe Adam was in full rebellion before Eve was tempted and before the serpent entered the garden. He set Eve up and gave the tempter access to her.

3. Based upon Adam's choice to let the serpent into the garden and permit it to tempt Eve in his presence, I believe that Adam would have rebelled, even without the devil's temptation. Even if Eve had not been created.

1) If you don't believe Adam sinned because of his love for Eve... That is fine because the Bible really does not say. I sort of believe that he knew Eve had lost the life of God in her at sin and knew that they were in fact separated and that because of his love for her, he chose to join her in sin rather than live without her in the Garden.
Sort of like Gladys Knight's song Leaving on that Midnight Train to Georgia.

"I'd rather live in his world (live in his world)
Than live without him in mine (world, world)"

2) As for Adam being in rebellion BEFORE the sin with Eve at the Tree of Knowledge of Good And Evil....

How could he be in rebellion BEFORE eating of the tree since Eating of the Tree is the ONLY thing that was a sin? Gen 2:17

3) You have stated your belief, and again that is fine. But I don't know of any Scripture that would support that. In fact to think that Adam would have sinned without a tempter, would have to be pure speculation for sure.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

2) As for Adam being in rebellion BEFORE the sin with Eve at the Tree of Knowledge of Good And Evil....

How could he be in rebellion BEFORE eating of the tree since Eating of the Tree is the ONLY thing that was a sin? Gen 2:17

3) You have stated your belief, and again that is fine. But I don't know of any Scripture that would support that. In fact to think that Adam would have sinned without a tempter, would have to be pure speculation for sure.

Genesis 2:15

Adam was already in sin prior to that, as Dake notes on Genesis 2:15, "Man’s duty was to cultivate and keep (preserve) the garden from all intruders. “Keep” is from the Hebrew shamar (HSN-<H8104>), to hedge about, guard, protect (Gen. 3:24; 6:19–20; 7:3; 17:9–10; 18:19; 28:15, 20; Ps. 17:8). This is the first hint of an enemy of God and man. Adam failed to “keep” the garden, so sin entered and Satan became the pseudo-ruler of the restored earth (Mt. 4:1–11; 12:24–25; Rom. 5:12–21; 2Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:10–18)."

Had Adam not failed in obeying the command to preserve the garden from all intruders and guard and protect it, the tempter would not have gotten a chance at Eve. Failure to obey is sin. The command not to eat of the tree was not the only instruction that Adam was given.

I cannot think of a reason that Adam could not have intervened right up to the moment of Eve taking that first bite. But, he stood there. Listened. Watched. And, said and did nothing to stop it. I do not see the love in that, at all. I see a willful rebel that knows his wife is about to take poison and doing absolutely nothing to stop it, even though it was certainly within his power and authority.

Adam, through his wilful inaction (as he was not deceived), disregarded the risk of serious harm that any reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. A gross deviation from the general standard of care of a husband for his wife.

[bibleman]

2) As for Adam being in rebellion BEFORE the sin with Eve at the Tree of Knowledge of Good And Evil....

How could he be in rebellion BEFORE eating of the tree since Eating of the Tree is the ONLY thing that was a sin? Gen 2:17

3) You have stated your belief, and again that is fine. But I don't know of any Scripture that would support that. In fact to think that Adam would have sinned without a tempter, would have to be pure speculation for sure.

Genesis 2:15

Adam was already in sin prior to that, as Dake notes on Genesis 2:15, "Man’s duty was to cultivate and keep (preserve) the garden from all intruders. “Keep” is from the Hebrew shamar (HSN-<H8104>), to hedge about, guard, protect (Gen. 3:24; 6:19–20; 7:3; 17:9–10; 18:19; 28:15, 20; Ps. 17:8). This is the first hint of an enemy of God and man. Adam failed to “keep” the garden, so sin entered and Satan became the pseudo-ruler of the restored earth (Mt. 4:1–11; 12:24–25; Rom. 5:12–21; 2Cor. 4:4; Eph. 6:10–18)."

Had Adam not failed in obeying the command to preserve the garden from all intruders and guard and protect it, the tempter would not have gotten a chance at Eve. Failure to obey is sin. The command not to eat of the tree was not the only instruction that Adam was given.

I cannot think of a reason that Adam could not have intervened right up to the moment of Eve taking that first bite. But, he stood there. Listened. Watched. And, said and did nothing to stop it. I do not see the love in that, at all. I see a willful rebel that knows his wife is about to take poison and doing absolutely nothing to stop it, even though it was certainly within his power and authority.

Adam, through his wilful inaction (as he was not deceived), disregarded the risk of serious harm that any reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. A gross deviation from the general standard of care of a husband for his wife.

I do not see anywhere that Dake is saying Adam sinned Before the act of partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fact that satan was an inhabitant of the restored earth is not a failure of Adam to keep the garden… satan was there by God’s plan not the failure of Adam.

After listening to Dake everyday for many years now I have never heard him say that Adam sinned before the tree of knowledge event.

And in fact in listing the test for the dispensation of innocence Dake does not mention anything about keeping the garden…

“Test--not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:16-17; 3:6).“

And on Dakes note for Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Dake writes: “Both sin and death came by Adam's transgression of Gen. 2:17.”

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So to try and make Dake teach that Adam sinned before he sinned is completly off base.

Now on the Adam’s love for his wife that I believe and you do not then that is fine since it is only my belief and not scripture. But that being said I still believe that is why Adam partook with his wife.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Why do you believe that Dake didn't believe that Adam's failure to "keep" the garden was sinful?

The mark was set. Dress and keep the garden. Adam failed.

Isn't sin missing the mark?