Dake Bible Discussion BoardDoes the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

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luchnia
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Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by luchnia »

HT posted this statement - "Don't you think the fruit of a doctrine is the proof of whether or not it is from God?"

What are your thoughts on the above statement?

A doctrine is simply a belief or set of beliefs. Before one can determine whether a doctrine is from God, there would need to be a method to determine if the doctrine is not in error and what does from God mean?

Does from God mean it was directly given to a person from the mouth of God, or just a belief derived from their perception of certain scriptures? If a person is proclaiming their belief about something is from God does the fruit of their belief give evidence that it is?


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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?


SALVATION FOR ALL
“Who would have ALL MEN to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1Ti. 2:4);
“Not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
— Dake, F. J. (n.d.). Help for Today: Daily Promises (Nov. 11th).

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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?
They surely do.
Consider the doctrine of the Nicolations.
While we don't know what it even was, Jesus hated it.
The fruit of that doctrine was Jesus' hate, besides whatever other evil it contained.
Consider the fruit of the doctrines that accommodate sin.
The fruit is more sin.
Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
Of course, but that would produce the fruit of the application instead of the fruit of the doctrine.
As for good doctrine imperfectly applied...again the fruit would be from the application, instead of the doctrine.
A life boat is still a life boat even if a panicking or inept crew never lowers it to the oceans' surface.



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luchnia
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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
You are right a doctrine cannot bear anything of itself. A doctrine is simply a belief. Fruit comes from action of the belief by an individual or group of individuals. The understanding of the doctrine by an individual usually determines how one applies it and what fruit comes from that application by the individual.

There are good and bad doctrines and those that have properly grown in Christ should even leave behind the principles of the doctrine of Christ unto maturity. There are doctrines of devils and of man. Doctrines that are built upon ignorance from a single text or a small number of text and then used in an improper application are good examples of changed doctrines being imperfectly applied doctrines.

John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source, but this passage does not tell us if a doctrine is misunderstood and incorrectly applied as in the case of one being ignorant of the full meaning of a doctrine. One thing of note though is the one that speaks of himself seeking his own glory has obviously changed the doctrine to suit himself.

The one that seeks God's glory will have a heart to understand the doctrine and its origin and not twist it to fit their agenda. There are other scriptures that delve more deeply into this.

John 7:15-18 (KJV)
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source, but this passage does not tell us if a doctrine is misunderstood and incorrectly applied as in the case of one being ignorant of the full meaning of a doctrine. One thing of note though is the one that speaks of himself seeking his own glory has obviously changed the doctrine to suit himself.

The one that seeks God's glory will have a heart to understand the doctrine and its origin and not twist it to fit their agenda. There are other scriptures that delve more deeply into this.

John 7:15-18 (KJV)
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Good point.
Thanks for sharing this Scripture.


SALVATION FOR ALL
“Who would have ALL MEN to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1Ti. 2:4);
“Not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
— Dake, F. J. (n.d.). Help for Today: Daily Promises (Nov. 11th).

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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source,...

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The scripture makes it clear that those who don't do His will won't know of the doctrine, whether it be of God.
Good words to remember when sinners try to get you to believe something.



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luchnia
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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source,...

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The scripture makes it clear that those who don't do His will won't know of the doctrine, whether it be of God.
Good words to remember when sinners try to get you to believe something.
What scripture states that those that don't do His will won't know of the doctrine? Where do we find a scripture that states that, or are you just adding something to the verses I posted?


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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:45 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source,...

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The scripture makes it clear that those who don't do His will won't know of the doctrine, whether it be of God.
Good words to remember when sinners try to get you to believe something.
What scripture states that those that don't do His will won't know of the doctrine? Where do we find a scripture that states that, or are you just adding something to the verses I posted?
John 7:17.
Reason it out.
If a man does His will he will know a doctrine is from God.
That leaves those who don't do His will to not know the doctrine is of God.



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luchnia
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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:42 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:45 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source,...

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The scripture makes it clear that those who don't do His will won't know of the doctrine, whether it be of God.
Good words to remember when sinners try to get you to believe something.
What scripture states that those that don't do His will won't know of the doctrine? Where do we find a scripture that states that, or are you just adding something to the verses I posted?
John 7:17.
Reason it out.
If a man does His will he will know a doctrine is from God.
That leaves those who don't do His will to not know the doctrine is of God.
If we study this out more, we will find that they were seeking to kill Jesus because he healed on the sabbath day. Jesus asked them why there were seeking to kill Him.

They were not doing the will of God, but they had full knowledge of the doctrine. The question was where did they think the doctrine came from, Jesus or God. Jesus let them know His doctrine came from God as Jesus did not seek His own glory.

The principle of the verses in question is knowing who the doctrine is from by recognizing man seeking his own glory, or the glory of God, and not whether they knew the doctrine or not.


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: Does the fruit of a doctrine prove whether it is from God or not?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:51 am
Hill Top wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:42 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:45 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:00 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 6:42 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:24 am
Do doctrines even have fruit?

Don't they have to be applied, put into action, in order to have an effect? If so, doesn't it depend more on how accurately the doctrine is applied? Couldn't there be a perfect doctrine that is imperfectly applied?
John 7:17 tells us how to test a doctrine to determine its source,...

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The scripture makes it clear that those who don't do His will won't know of the doctrine, whether it be of God.
Good words to remember when sinners try to get you to believe something.
What scripture states that those that don't do His will won't know of the doctrine? Where do we find a scripture that states that, or are you just adding something to the verses I posted?
John 7:17.
Reason it out.
If a man does His will he will know a doctrine is from God.
That leaves those who don't do His will to not know the doctrine is of God.
If we study this out more, we will find that they were seeking to kill Jesus because he healed on the sabbath day. Jesus asked them why there were seeking to kill Him.

They were not doing the will of God, but they had full knowledge of the doctrine. The question was where did they think the doctrine came from, Jesus or God. Jesus let them know His doctrine came from God as Jesus did not seek His own glory.

The principle of the verses in question is knowing who the doctrine is from by recognizing man seeking his own glory, or the glory of God, and not whether they knew the doctrine or not.
That was indeed Jesus' perspective at the time.
The truth of it, however, can be used on other occasions.
We can tell if a doctrine is from God by the source of the doctrine.
We can tell if a prophesy is from God by the status of the person who utters the prophesy.
We can tell if a healing is from God by the state of the healer.

Makes me think of the sons of Sceva in Acts 19, and how the evil spirit knew the sons were not of God.



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