Dake Bible Discussion BoardUnity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

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luchnia
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Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by luchnia »

HT posted this in a recent thread apparently attempting to justify something said to a weaker brother, or according to HT he was not a brother at all because of his stance. The quote, "By praying to grow in grace and knowledge we can come to a unity unseen in the world." begs a number of questions.

Is it unity in purpose or unity in doctrine?

Among other doctrines HT maintains:

*He can never fall.
*He cannot offend a weaker brother.
*You have to be baptized in water to have your sins remitted.

Since many of us on this forum believe these doctrines are false doctrines and have pointed out our opposition to them, how can we become unified with HT or others where doctrine is an issue? Is there anything that can/will unify us?

Is unity about Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead instead of all doctrinal issues held by HT that we think are false? I would state it is Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead, if not, then by HT's own words we are not his brothers in Christ.

If we use his philosophy and we, instead of HT, hold truth then HT is actually not our brother in Christ, however this is food for thought and not the point of this thread. The point is what is required for unity? Is it doctrine or the focal point of Christ and Him crucified and rose again?

Hopefully we see the later being the unity required of us and not doctrine. If understanding all doctrine the same is unity then that is not ever likely to occur. IMO unity is about agreeing to disagree in maturity on doctrinal issues giving the focus on Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead.

What are your thoughts about this?


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Hill Top
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:40 am
HT posted this in a recent thread apparently attempting to justify something said to a weaker brother, or according to HT he was not a brother at all because of his stance. The quote, "By praying to grow in grace and knowledge we can come to a unity unseen in the world." begs a number of questions.
Is it unity in purpose or unity in doctrine?
Is your "purpose" doctrinal?
Among other doctrines HT maintains:
*He can never fall.
It is written..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)
*He cannot offend a weaker brother.
Weaker brothers can be strengthened with knowledge.
Then, they are no longer weak.
*You have to be baptized in water to have your sins remitted.

It is written..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
It is written..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)
Since many of us on this forum believe these doctrines are false doctrines and have pointed out our opposition to them, how can we become unified with HT or others where doctrine is an issue? Is there anything that can/will unify us?
You could repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like I did.
Then we would both be non-sinners.
Is unity about Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead instead of all doctrinal issues held by HT that we think are false? I would state it is Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead, if not, then by HT's own words we are not his brothers in Christ.
And by your words too, now.
If we use his philosophy and we, instead of HT, hold truth then HT is actually not our brother in Christ, however this is food for thought and not the point of this thread.
The point is what is required for unity?
Is it doctrine or the focal point of Christ and Him crucified and rose again?
How can the doctrine be of men if the word of God is not?
The doctrine is based on the word of God, so if you think it is not, prove it is of men instead.
There is always the fruit of the doctrine that illustrates of what seed it is born.
Hopefully we see the later being the unity required of us and not doctrine. If understanding all doctrine the same is unity then that is not ever likely to occur. IMO unity is about agreeing to disagree in maturity on doctrinal issues giving the focus on Christ and Him crucified and rose again from the dead.
How can one believe He was raised from the dead and still disobey Him?
The devils know He was raised from the dead, and that knowledge isn't going to help them at all.
Neither will it help us.
It is the doctrine that guides and corrals our every footstep.
The doctrine is of God if it leads to righteousness.
If it doesn't, it is not of God.

Lucnia, do you commit sin?



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luchnia
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:24 pm
He doesn't believe in water baptism.
My question was based on the present condition his doctrine has brought him to.
In other words, has his doctrine allowed him to live without sinning?
This is a false assertion you have made about my belief. I do believe in water baptism, however I do not agree with your doctrine on water baptism.

The only thing that removes sins is the immersion into Christ. Immersion into water and the immersion into Christ are not the same thing. You need water to remove your sin, Christ removed my sin. This is where our disagreement is.


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Hill Top
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:03 am
Hill Top wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:24 pm
He doesn't believe in water baptism.
My question was based on the present condition his doctrine has brought him to.
In other words, has his doctrine allowed him to live without sinning?
This is a false assertion you have made about my belief. I do believe in water baptism, however I do not agree with your doctrine on water baptism.
You don't believe the reason we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sins.
Just as Peter commanded in Acts 2:38, and Ananias commanded in Acts 22:16.
The only thing that removes sins is the immersion into Christ. Immersion into water and the immersion into Christ are not the same thing. You need water to remove your sin, Christ removed my sin. This is where our disagreement is.
They are the same thing.
The immersion into Christ, into His death, and into His burial, (Rom 6:3-6), is facilitated by water, which is the blood of Christ. (1 John 5:8)
As you don't believe they are the same thing, how did He wash away your past sins?
How was His atoning, sanctifying, justifying, regenerating, cleansing blood applied to your body?
And, how did it meet the requirements of Rom 6:4-6?..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
You don't believe we are actually killed with Christ at water baptism.
By our dying with Him we are also raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Sinlessly.
Do you still commit sin?
Is the fruit of your faith in your belief sinlessness?



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macca
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by macca »

You all should stop throwing pearls before swine so this sloppy vomit will die it's natural death.



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luchnia
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by luchnia »

macca wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:25 pm
You all should stop throwing pearls before swine so this sloppy vomit will die it's natural death.
I get your point here, yet to clarify the purpose behind why I post to some of these threads. I don't post for the benefit of those die-hard into their false doctrines such as putting water immersion over Christ for the remittance of sins. I post for those readers out there in the Internet world that may read these threads.

You never know it could be one single reader or a small number of readers that read these posts, but hopefully they are provoked to go to God's word to study these things out to find out His truth. I hope it is not casting pearls before swine, if so I would definitely need to refrain from such.


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macca
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by macca »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:58 am
macca wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:25 pm
You all should stop throwing pearls before swine so this sloppy vomit will die it's natural death.
I get your point here, yet to clarify the purpose behind why I post to some of these threads. I don't post for the benefit of those die-hard into their false doctrines such as putting water immersion over Christ for the remittance of sins. I post for those readers out there in the Internet world that may read these threads.
You never know it could be one single reader or a small number of readers that read these posts, but hopefully they are provoked to go to God's word to study these things out to find out His truth. I hope it is not casting pearls before swine, if so I would definitely need to refrain from such.

Thanks for that.



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luchnia
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:18 pm
They love sin more than they love God, and will do everything they can to retain it in their so-called "Christian" life..
Dude, I don't know where you get this stuff from or what type of people you know that act like this, but around here I don't know any that follow God that love sin more than they love God. If people love sin more than God then they are not His.


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Hill Top
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Re: Unity of Christ or unity of doctrine?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:42 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:18 pm
They love sin more than they love God, and will do everything they can to retain it in their so-called "Christian" life..
Dude, I don't know where you get this stuff from or what type of people you know that act like this, but around here I don't know any that follow God that love sin more than they love God. If people love sin more than God then they are not His.
Jesus said..." And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
The truth shall free you from serving sin.
Jesus said..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..." (Matt 6:24)
Ergo, Jesus says the servants of sin hate God.
The servant of sin is indeed not of God.



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