Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[Hill Top]

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
That would be called sin
And in fact God said sin existed BEFORE THE LAW!
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
So now are you ready to believe the Bible?

I agree with the bible.
And as the bible says in Rom 5:13, "sin is not imputed where there is no law".

[bibleman]

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
That would be called sin
And in fact God said sin existed BEFORE THE LAW!
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
So now are you ready to believe the Bible?

I agree with the bible.
And as the bible says in Rom 5:13, "sin is not imputed where there is no law".

Do you agree that God knew what he was talking about in this verse?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

[bibleman]

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

If sin is NOT imputed before the Law of Moses then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?

[Hill Top]

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
That would be called sin
And in fact God said sin existed BEFORE THE LAW!
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
So now are you ready to believe the Bible?

I agree with the bible.
And as the bible says in Rom 5:13, "sin is not imputed where there is no law".

Do you agree that God knew what he was talking about in this verse?
Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

I do agree, and don't find it "unGodlike" at all for God to impute their sins against them, in spite of what Rom 5:13 says.
In fact, the whole Noah and the flood episode is also an "imputation" of sin.
Even the events done by God to Egypt were "imputations" for sin.
Don't you agree?
So something deeper than mere imputation is involved here.

[Hill Top]

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

If sin is NOT imputed before the Law of Moses then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?

I don't know.
Perhaps it was a warning that disobedience has repercussions.
Perhaps the "imputation" Paul referred to were relevant to the after-life instead of merely on earth?
I wish I could make/take a list of the questions I have for Paul for when I see him on the new earth.

[bibleman]

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

If sin is NOT imputed before the Law of Moses then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?

I don't know.
Perhaps it was a warning that disobedience has repercussions.
Perhaps the "imputation" Paul referred to were relevant to the after-life instead of merely on earth?
I wish I could make/take a list of the questions I have for Paul for when I see him on the new earth.

If you would just believe the God's own words in the Bible you would not have all those questions.

[Hill Top]

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

If sin is NOT imputed before the Law of Moses then why did God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?

I don't know.
Perhaps it was a warning that disobedience has repercussions.
Perhaps the "imputation" Paul referred to were relevant to the after-life instead of merely on earth?
I wish I could make/take a list of the questions I have for Paul for when I see him on the new earth.

If you would just believe the God's own words in the Bible you would not have all those questions.

Thank you.

[macca]

Ezekiel. 28:15;
Thou was perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
Sin has been around a very long time

[Bible Reader]

Sinless babies? Ever see a baby have a temper tantrum? That is sin.
Ever see a small toddler tell a lie? That is sin. Nobody taught the child to lie it is in their nature.
We are born with a sin nature. Babies sin when they do not get what they want when they want it.

Salvation requires being born again, to become a new creation. To be no longer chained to sin. A born again believer can still sin by choice but not by nature. But sinning by choice will repel the born again believer he will be sickened by his sin and repent of it. He can not live in sin doing so would contradict his new nature. He can resist his relationship to Christ, he can forsake his hope that is what being backslidden means, to give up, to stop running the race but sin will still be repulsive to the true born again believer.

Paul explains this in Romans and in many of his letters to the churches he encourages them not to give up not to lose their hope. He never talks to a born again believer of being in danger of losing their salvation. Paul also talks of pretenders, people that want to appear to be saved but are not. Many of the best theological minds believe very low percentage of people that regularly attend church are born again believers, most are accomplished pretenders. However none fool Jesus who will one day tell them he never knew them and they must depart.

[bibleman]

Sinless babies? Ever see a baby have a temper tantrum? That is sin.
Ever see a small toddler tell a lie? That is sin. Nobody taught the child to lie it is in their nature.
We are born with a sin nature. Babies sin when they do not get what they want when they want it.

Salvation requires being born again, to become a new creation. To be no longer chained to sin. A born again believer can still sin by choice but not by nature. But sinning by choice will repel the born again believer he will be sickened by his sin and repent of it. He can not live in sin doing so would contradict his new nature. He can resist his relationship to Christ, he can forsake his hope that is what being backslidden means, to give up, to stop running the race but sin will still be repulsive to the true born again believer.

Paul explains this in Romans and in many of his letters to the churches he encourages them not to give up not to lose their hope. He never talks to a born again believer of being in danger of losing their salvation. Paul also talks of pretenders, people that want to appear to be saved but are not. Many of the best theological minds believe very low percentage of people that regularly attend church are born again believers, most are accomplished pretenders. However none fool Jesus who will one day tell them he never knew them and they must depart.

That is a bunch of theological hogwash! NOT what Paul taught.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

James addressed backsliding like this:

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.