Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[Hill Top]

Men can fall away from a position or stance, when they change their position or stance.
A seed can't change the fruit it bears from apples to onions.

A seed cannot change the fruit it bears, but men can change and plant a different seed in their heart and bear different fruit.

You are sure persistent in your attempts to make 1 John 3:9 a lie.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
As those born of God cannot commit sin, it is implausible to imagine them falling away.

You are sure persistent in your attempts to make Jesus a liar in the parable of the sower and the rest of the verses in 1 John and 2 John as well as many other verses.

Maybe it is time to start discussing the ground the seed goes in and what it means to understand so that the seed will remain because if you don't, it won't. The words "remaineth in him" have meaning as well as "doth not commit sin". It may be implausible to imagine them falling away, but nonetheless, Jesus and many others in God's word said they did and people will.

We can deny it till the end of the earth, but it won't make it any less true that they did fall away and others will. When verses have words such as "if any man sin..." that has meaning just as the other verses do.

We can pull any verse out of context like 1 John 3:9 and build a doctrine from it, but that won't make it true. Verse 10 is just as important as verse 9. The entire word must be rightly handled. In my early days I was a "one text wonder" but I was wrong in taking verses out of context and out of their meaning.

Look at 2 John 1:9 and ask yourself how important that verse is? Does whosoever transgresseth and abideth not have meaning? How can one transgress and not abide from a point they were never at? Why not put the same weight on all the verses?

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 3:10 (KJV)
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
2 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Matthew 13:18-23 (KJV)
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

"Falling away" is the best illustration of someone who is not of God's seed.

[Bible Reader]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years?

Who said he did? Can you see the heart of man? He was an actor that acted just like his church/pastor told him to.
Did he ever serve Jesus? Did he ever believe in Jesus to the point his very life was dependent on Jesus. Or did he hold back enough of himself that he was not dependent on Jesus?

Scripture show us a picture of people that act like Christian’s. They did everything a good Christian would do even to the point of healing, which has become some kind of litmus test for “real Christianity”. Yet scripture tells us Jesus told them to depart from Him that He never knew them.

My guess the guy never stopped worshipping Money and human pleasure.

[luchnia]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years?

Who said he did? Can you see the heart of man? He was an actor that acted just like his church/pastor told him to.
Did he ever serve Jesus? Did he ever believe in Jesus to the point his very life was dependent on Jesus. Or did he hold back enough of himself that he was not dependent on Jesus?

Scripture show us a picture of people that act like Christian’s. They did everything a good Christian would do even to the point of healing, which has become some kind of litmus test for “real Christianity”. Yet scripture tells us Jesus told them to depart from Him that He never knew them.

My guess the guy never stopped worshipping Money and human pleasure.

Where does Bibleman imply the man was an actor or a worker of iniquity acting like he was a Christian? I simply do not see that in Bibleman's post - nothing about lying or anything else while he was righteous. From what the post states the man was not a worker of iniquity during his previous time of working righteousness. The premise is that the man fell from being righteous and left God.

The post states that the person says they got saved at 20 years of age in 2002. The person worked righteousness all that time and later backslid leaving God becoming evil and wound up in a satanist church killing his wife and children and so on. Nothing in the post states the person worked iniquity during the time he was righteous.

[bibleman]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years?

Who said he did? Can you see the heart of man? He was an actor that acted just like his church/pastor told him to.
Did he ever serve Jesus? Did he ever believe in Jesus to the point his very life was dependent on Jesus. Or did he hold back enough of himself that he was not dependent on Jesus?

Scripture show us a picture of people that act like Christian’s. They did everything a good Christian would do even to the point of healing, which has become some kind of litmus test for “real Christianity”. Yet scripture tells us Jesus told them to depart from Him that He never knew them.

My guess the guy never stopped worshipping Money and human pleasure.

thanks, I could not have said it better.

[luchnia]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years?

Who said he did? Can you see the heart of man? He was an actor that acted just like his church/pastor told him to.
Did he ever serve Jesus? Did he ever believe in Jesus to the point his very life was dependent on Jesus. Or did he hold back enough of himself that he was not dependent on Jesus?

Scripture show us a picture of people that act like Christian’s. They did everything a good Christian would do even to the point of healing, which has become some kind of litmus test for “real Christianity”. Yet scripture tells us Jesus told them to depart from Him that He never knew them.

My guess the guy never stopped worshipping Money and human pleasure.

thanks, I could not have said it better.

So he did not backslide and was a fake? I guess I misunderstood your post where you stated he backslid and left God. I assumed you meant he actually did backslide and left God. This was a case of acting like he was a Christian when he wasn't at all.

[Bible Reader]

OK got a question

A person says he got saved at 20 years of age in 2002.
He is now 40 years old.
He was a avid Bible student.
He went to church every time the doors were opened.
He paid his tithes every single week on every penny he made.
He volunteered at homeless and food shelters.
He was on the witnessing team at church.
He volunteered to clean the church every week.
He was on the church praise team.
He went on a mission trip every year for 20 years.
He donated his cars for the cause of missions on several occasions throughout the 20 years.
He opened his house to new believers who needed assistance.

OK this same person backslid and left God.
He no longer goes to church.
He has now joined the Satanist church.
He now spends his money on the lottery, gambling and drugs.
He is an alcoholic.
He just recently killed his wife and strangled his 3 children just before he set the house on fire.
He then picked up a female prostitute and a homosexual man and went to Las Vegas to gamble for the week.
While there he robbed a casino and killed the taxi cab driver for his 87 dollars.

Alright some would say that this man was NEVER born again and never a true seed of God.

So then following that logic.

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years that he did?

What gave him the power to live righteously with such commitment to God for the 20 years?

Who said he did? Can you see the heart of man? He was an actor that acted just like his church/pastor told him to.
Did he ever serve Jesus? Did he ever believe in Jesus to the point his very life was dependent on Jesus. Or did he hold back enough of himself that he was not dependent on Jesus?

Scripture show us a picture of people that act like Christian’s. They did everything a good Christian would do even to the point of healing, which has become some kind of litmus test for “real Christianity”. Yet scripture tells us Jesus told them to depart from Him that He never knew them.

My guess the guy never stopped worshipping Money and human pleasure.

Where does Bibleman imply the man was an actor or a worker of iniquity acting like he was a Christian? I simply do not see that in Bibleman's post - nothing about lying or anything else while he was righteous. From what the post states the man was not a worker of iniquity during his previous time of working righteousness. The premise is that the man fell from being righteous and left God.

The post states that the person says they got saved at 20 years of age in 2002. The person worked righteousness all that time and later backslid leaving God becoming evil and wound up in a satanist church killing his wife and children and so on. Nothing in the post states the person worked iniquity during the time he was righteous.

I never said Bibleman said anything, I was saying since we are human we can not see the TRUE state of a person. We do not if they are truly saved or if they are just acting. Many people today aren't saved they are trying to be saved by their own strength. They try to live good lives, they attend church, they tithe but they never really became dependent on Jesus. If you are saved you become a new creation. New creations can not be transformed back into o,d creations that sin without hope. That is not saying saved people ccan't sin, they do but it is not their pattern of life, they still depend on Jesus for their salvation.

[luchnia]

Who do we know? Everyone that claimed to be saved but “backslides” they were never saved they only forced themselves to live with the appearance of being saved. Many might even think they are saved but they were never born again, therefore they have a heart of sin. They even thought they were saved to the point of coming to Jesus but he told them that he Jesus never knew them.

Please explain what backslide means? Doesn't that mean sliding backwards from a position or point that you were in? It is like going back to doing something bad that you were doing previous to your new way.

In your analysis, you would really need to say they were not backsliders, nor could not be backsliders, if they were never saved and lived with the appearance of being saved. In this case all we know is the person lived sin free and somehow it is believed by some that he lived sin free by living for the devil as an actor. Might be tough to find a biblical example of this type of behavior.

Finally how does one "think they are saved but they never were born again, therefore they have a heart of sin."? How does that work. So you are implying that you can be saved in your thoughts, not be born again, and have a heart of sin? What if the person is born from above and also thinks they are born from above? Can you point out how one would tell the difference in the two? Would that be by their fruit?

[Ironman]

Who do we know? Everyone that claimed to be saved but “backslides” they were never saved they only forced themselves to live with the appearance of being saved. Many might even think they are saved but they were never born again, therefore they have a heart of sin. They even thought they were saved to the point of coming to Jesus but he told them that he Jesus never knew them.

Please explain what backslide means? Doesn't that mean sliding backwards from a position or point that you were in? It is like going back to doing something bad that you were doing previous to your new way.

In your analysis, you would really need to say they were not backsliders, nor could not be backsliders, if they were never saved and lived with the appearance of being saved. In this case all we know is the person lived sin free and somehow it is believed by some that he lived sin free by living for the devil as an actor. Might be tough to find a biblical example of this type of behavior.

Finally how does one "think they are saved but they never were born again, therefore they have a heart of sin."? How does that work. So you are implying that you can be saved in your thoughts, not be born again, and have a heart of sin? What if the person is born from above and also thinks they are born from above? Can you point out how one would tell the difference in the two? Would that be by their fruit?

Here is an example of backsliding. Peter was a true follower of Christ and yet he was also a back slider.

Matt. 26:58; "But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end."

1. In verse Matt. 26:33 ; Pr. 16:18, he boasted.

2. Made Christ a lier (v 33-35)

3. Slept instead of praying (v 40)

4. Failed to moritify the flesh (v 41)

5. Relied on the arm of flesh (v 51)

6. Forsook Christ and fled (v 56)

7. Followed afar off (v 58)

8. Sat with the Lords enemies (v 58)

9. Gave up hope-discouraged (v 58)

10. became afraid of men (v 69-74)

11. Lied (v 69-74)

12 Cursed (v 69-74)

Jesus had predicted his backsliding and RE-CONVERSION (Luke 22:31-34). Peter was a saved man who lost his salvation, repented and was re-converted.

v.31, And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33, And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34, And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter denied Jesus before men three times.

Jesus said anyone who denies Me before men, I shall deny them before My Father

Mat 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 22: 60-62, And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.


61, And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly

Had Peter not wept bitterly and repented, where do you think He would have ended up after death?

God wants all men to be saved, if they want to be saved. God forces no one to be saved, stay saved, or love Him. Once saved, God says we must endure to the end, in other words, resist temptation

Matthew 10:22, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that ENDURETH to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Christs own words of warning to the saved;

Matthew 26:41, Watch ye and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mark 14:38, Watch ye and pray, LEST YE ENTER TEMPTATION. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

From Dakes God Plan for man book.

[Hill Top]

Here is an example of backsliding. Peter was a true follower of Christ and yet he was also a back slider.

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

Matt. 26:58; "But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end."
1. In verse Matt. 26:33 ; Pr. 16:18, he boasted.
2. Made Christ a lier (v 33-35)
3. Slept instead of praying (v 40)
4. Failed to moritify the flesh (v 41)
5. Relied on the arm of flesh (v 51)
6. Forsook Christ and fled (v 56)
7. Followed afar off (v 58)
8. Sat with the Lords enemies (v 58)
9. Gave up hope-discouraged (v 58)
10. became afraid of men (v 69-74)
11. Lied (v 69-74)
12 Cursed (v 69-74)

I'm sure glad I don't show the markers of a man who walks in the flesh anymore.
I bet Peter was too, after he received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus had predicted his backsliding and RE-CONVERSION (Luke 22:31-34). Peter was a saved man who lost his salvation, repented and was re-converted.

There was no mention of a RE-conversion by the Lord Jesus Christ here...just conversion.

Peter denied Jesus before men three times.
Jesus said anyone who denies Me before men, I shall deny them before My Father

The warnings of God or of His Son carry little weight with the unconverted.

Had Peter not wept bitterly and repented, where do you think He would have ended up after death?
God wants all men to be saved, if they want to be saved. God forces no one to be saved, stay saved, or love Him. Once saved, God says we must endure to the end, in other words, resist temptation
Matthew 10:22, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that ENDURETH to the end shall be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Christs own words of warning to the saved;
Matthew 26:41, Watch ye and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
From Dake's God Plan for man book.

Are we not so very grateful that we don't walk in the now crucified flesh anymore?
I sure am.
Thanks be to God !

[Ironman]

Noah, Moses, Abraham, and many other OT believers in God are in Heaven, never having been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.