Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[luchnia]

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

You are getting more nutty with each post.

The problem is there was never a time there was no law, nor will eve be. Just because one does not have the law of sin in the flesh would never mean they are without law as the case was with Adam.

If there were no law, edicts, rules, conditions, etc., there would be nothing to obey as there could not be a command given. Dake has a good chapter about Moral Law and Moral Government in chapter four of Bible Truths Unmasked.

Even the perfect law of liberty is law just as the law of faith is law. Grace is not lawless as it is ruled by laws with judgment based on the intention of the heart. One could also say that without law one would not know grace as one cannot even get to grace without faith.

[bibleman]

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

You are getting more nutty with each post.

The problem is there was never a time there was no law, nor will eve be. Just because one does not have the law of sin in the flesh would never mean they are without law as the case was with Adam.

If there were no law, edicts, rules, conditions, etc., there would be nothing to obey as there could not be a command given. Dake has a good chapter about Moral Law and Moral Government in chapter four of Bible Truths Unmasked.

Even the perfect law of liberty is law just as the law of faith is law. Grace is not lawless as it is ruled by laws with judgment based on the intention of the heart. One could also say that without law one would not know grace as one cannot even get to grace without faith.

Absolutely! Man from the time of birth always has the law of conscience and the innate drawing to do right.

BUT I think Hilltop was talking about "the law" as in the Law of Moses.

[Hill Top]

Got any Scripture that states that a person can live sin free without God's help?

Not a one.
Can you commit sin while you are asleep?
In a coma?
On the other hand, with out the Law, there is no sin...as it is written..."Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)

It is written..."For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
24 Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight." (Psalm 18:22-24)
Men can live without sin, and without Christ, under their own power for a length of time, but eventually the nature wins out.

When you come up with a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God... I would be interested in reading it.
Until then you are espousing an UN-Biblical doctrine otherwise known as false doctrine.

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

[Bible Reader]

Only Jesus lived on this earth without sin. Fact!

When you are saved who is Lord of your life? You? You and Jesus? Or Jesus?

If your Lord is Jesus how can you turn around and say He is not? You can't. You never totally surrendered you held back that part of you that makes decisions on who is Lord in your life. You were never born again you just acted like a person in submission to the Lord but you held back should the day ever come when you thought you saw a better deal.

Many of you try to bring it down to sin, can I do this and be saved? can I do that and be saved? Nonsense!

The point is who is Lord and Master of your life? Jesus totally or not!

If Jesus is truly master of your life today He will be tomorrow! Guaranteed!

[bibleman]

Not a one.
Can you commit sin while you are asleep?
In a coma?
On the other hand, with out the Law, there is no sin...as it is written..."Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20)

It is written..."For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
24 Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight." (Psalm 18:22-24)
Men can live without sin, and without Christ, under their own power for a length of time, but eventually the nature wins out.

When you come up with a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God... I would be interested in reading it.
Until then you are espousing an UN-Biblical doctrine otherwise known as false doctrine.

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

[Ironman]

When you come up with a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God... I would be interested in reading it.
Until then you are espousing an UN-Biblical doctrine otherwise known as false doctrine.

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden tree they would die. The devil, through the serpent told them if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would not die. The devil, in saying this told them God was telling them a lie. They believed the devil and thereby also believed God was a liar. Calling God liar is a sin. God never lies, neither does the Holy Spirit or the Word who became flesh, Jesus!

[bibleman]

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden tree they would die. The devil, through the serpent told them if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would not die. The devil, in saying this told them God was telling them a lie. They believed the devil and thereby also believed God was a liar. Calling God liar is a sin. God never lies, neither does the Holy Spirit or the Word who became flesh, Jesus!

So true. And that is sin.

BUT for hilltop it is NOT sin! Go figure!

[Hill Top]

When you come up with a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God... I would be interested in reading it.
Until then you are espousing an UN-Biblical doctrine otherwise known as false doctrine.

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

[Hill Top]

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden tree they would die. The devil, through the serpent told them if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would not die. The devil, in saying this told them God was telling them a lie. They believed the devil and thereby also believed God was a liar. Calling God liar is a sin. God never lies, neither does the Holy Spirit or the Word who became flesh, Jesus!

So true. And that is sin.
BUT for hilltop it is NOT sin! Go figure!

We can call it a sin now, but was the word "sin" even in use then?
As it is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
No Law...no sin imputed.
If you are OK with imputing sin to them...feel free.

[bibleman]

Here you go..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:14-15)

Can a two year old boy live without sin, without God?
How many convicted criminals in prison live exemplary lives in hope of early release?

No God, no Law.
No Law, no sin.

Still waiting.... for a Scripture to support the idea that men can live without sin without God...

As I said earlier...I can't think of a one.
Unless you are talking about a time before there was Law, then everyone lived without sin.
Then...It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)

So now you are saying Adam who lived before the law was living without sin!

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
He sinned by our standards, which are based on our knowledge of the Law of Moses; but sin wasn't impugned to him or Eve.

If he did not sin... then why did God break fellowship with him and kick him out of the Garden?

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.
Labor begets wages, and in this case the wage for disobedience was eventually death.
I'ld call it a sin, instead of disobedience, but sin is not imputed before the Law of Moses. (Rom 5:13)

Adam and Eve disobeyed what God commanded.

That would be called sin

And in fact God said sin existed BEFORE THE LAW!

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

So now are you ready to believe the Bible?