Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[Hill Top]

Sinless babies? Ever see a baby have a temper tantrum? That is sin.

No it isn't.
Where is the lust, enticement, temptation, law to break?

Ever see a small toddler tell a lie? That is sin.

Same answer.
Shall we prosecute a two year old liar?

Nobody taught the child to lie it is in their nature.
We are born with a sin nature. Babies sin when they do not get what they want when they want it.

We are born human, with a human nature.
But if you take your POV one step further, doesn't that also show that adults who "don't get what they want" are also still of the old nature?

Salvation requires being born again, to become a new creation. To be no longer chained to sin. A born again believer can still sin by choice but not by nature.

If he sins, he wasn't born again from God's seed, as God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

But sinning by choice will repel the born again believer he will be sickened by his sin and repent of it. He can not live in sin doing so would contradict his new nature. He can resist his relationship to Christ, he can forsake his hope that is what being backslidden means, to give up, to stop running the race but sin will still be repulsive to the true born again believer.

Backslidden means: never repented of sin or was reborn of God's seed.

Paul explains this in Romans and in many of his letters to the churches he encourages them not to give up not to lose their hope. He never talks to a born again believer of being in danger of losing their salvation.

What is the difference between "given up/hopeless" and "unsaved"?
Nothing.
Paul's warnings, exhortations, and admonishments were for folks in the body of Christ, so they wouldn't be exposed as traitors.

Paul also talks of pretenders, people that want to appear to be saved but are not. Many of the best theological minds believe very low percentage of people that regularly attend church are born again believers, most are accomplished pretenders. However none fool Jesus who will one day tell them he never knew them and they must depart.

I agree.
And the difference between "pretender" and "genuine" is...sin.

[luchnia]

Sinless babies? Ever see a baby have a temper tantrum? That is sin.
Ever see a small toddler tell a lie? That is sin. Nobody taught the child to lie it is in their nature.
We are born with a sin nature. Babies sin when they do not get what they want when they want it.

Salvation requires being born again, to become a new creation. To be no longer chained to sin. A born again believer can still sin by choice but not by nature. But sinning by choice will repel the born again believer he will be sickened by his sin and repent of it. He can not live in sin doing so would contradict his new nature. He can resist his relationship to Christ, he can forsake his hope that is what being backslidden means, to give up, to stop running the race but sin will still be repulsive to the true born again believer.

Paul explains this in Romans and in many of his letters to the churches he encourages them not to give up not to lose their hope. He never talks to a born again believer of being in danger of losing their salvation. Paul also talks of pretenders, people that want to appear to be saved but are not. Many of the best theological minds believe very low percentage of people that regularly attend church are born again believers, most are accomplished pretenders. However none fool Jesus who will one day tell them he never knew them and they must depart.

I would ask who told you this stuff, but will refrain and just chalk it up as being baroque and not something taught in God's word. No one is born with a sin nature as that would be impossible because as James clearly shows sin is a choice. When we are born we cannot even make decisions yet.

[macca]

Isaiah. 7:14-15;
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel.

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

[Bible Reader]

Who teaches children to sin? When do they learn?

Has anyone that was born ever been unborn?

So if a believe is born again a new creation when is he unborn again and part of the old creation.

And while we are at it what is the old creation? When does it take place? At birth? 5 years old? 12 years old? Just when?

What is the distinct difference in the old creation and the new?

Can anyone decide to be born again? Can they decide to be unborn again?

[Hill Top]

Who teaches children to sin? When do they learn?

I don't know if your questions are rhetorical or if you rely desire answers.
I'll assume the latter.
Children learn to sin from their parents and those with whom their parents associate.

Has anyone that was born ever been unborn?

None I have ever heard of.

So if a believe is born again a new creation when is he unborn again and part of the old creation.

I would say...never.
Sin would illustrate his failure to be reborn.

And while we are at it what is the old creation? When does it take place? At birth? 5 years old? 12 years old? Just when?

At conception the "old" man is known to God.

What is the distinct difference in the old creation and the new?

The "old" walks after the flesh, and the "new" walks after the Spirit.

Can anyone decide to be born again? Can they decide to be unborn again?

Every man can decide to be born again.
"Unborn" again, not unless apple seeds can start bringing forth onions.

[luchnia]

Who teaches children to sin? When do they learn?

>>>They learn when they can make the choice to yield to unrighteousness and follow satan. Until then they cannot know sin because they are not knowledgeable of what sin even is.

Romans 6:13, 16 (KJV)
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Has anyone that was born ever been unborn?

>>>If you are asking about the physical, yes, people die all the time. If you are talking about the spiritual, yes, born again people go into apostasy as well.

So if a believe is born again a new creation when is he unborn again and part of the old creation.

>>>When he chooses to follow sin and satan again.

1 John 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:24-25 (KJV)
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 John 3:6-10 (KJV)
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 6:12-16 (KJV)
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And while we are at it what is the old creation? When does it take place? At birth? 5 years old? 12 years old? Just when?

>>>The old creation is the old man that is in sin and following satan. It took place when a person sinned whether that be at a young age or older age.

James 1:14-16 (KJV)
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Ephesians 2:2-3 (KJV)
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

What is the distinct difference in the old creation and the new?

>>>The NEW Birth - when one follows God and righteousness and not satan and unrighteousness.

John 3:3 (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:3 (KJV)
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Can anyone decide to be born again? Can they decide to be unborn again?

>>>Yes and Yes.

Romans 10:8-11 (KJV)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Unborn again - there are so many verses about the saved becoming lost it would be hard to include them all:
1 Timothy 1:19-20 (KJV)
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1 Timothy 5:7-8, 11-12, 19-20 (KJV)
7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1 Timothy 6:9-12 (KJV)
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Revelation 2:3-5 (KJV)
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

We as the disciples must labor for that which does not perish.
John 6:27 (KJV)
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

[Bible Reader]

Who teaches children to sin? When do they learn?

I don't know if your questions are rhetorical or if you rely desire answers.
I'll assume the latter.
Children learn to sin from their parents and those with whom their parents associate.

Has anyone that was born ever been unborn?

None I have ever heard of.

So if a believe is born again a new creation when is he unborn again and part of the old creation.

I would say...never.
Sin would illustrate his failure to be reborn.

And while we are at it what is the old creation? When does it take place? At birth? 5 years old? 12 years old? Just when?

At conception the "old" man is known to God.

What is the distinct difference in the old creation and the new?

The "old" walks after the flesh, and the "new" walks after the Spirit.

Can anyone decide to be born again? Can they decide to be unborn again?

Every man can decide to be born again.
"Unborn" again, not unless apple seeds can start bringing forth onions.

I agree with most of your answers except the first one.

Babies have the old nature set something that a child want and that does not belong to a child and the child will by nature take it. They do not know it is called stealing but it is stealing none the less.
Set a baby down that wants to be picked up and they will throw a tantrum. They do not know it is pride but is and it is a sin.
That is part of the sin nature we are all born with.
The law comes in when we kexplain sealing is taking something that not ours but they sinned not knowing that coveting was wrong.
The law comes in when we teach a child they can not always have their own way. Their pride may demand their way but that is sin.

This nature stays with us until we are born again. Then it passes away and we become new creations. Since we can't be unreborned we can not lose that born again nature. However if we pretended to be a Christian but never completely submitted to Christ we can still sin since we are not born again. Can a born again person sin yes but he will hate it, regret it and repent of it. If a person is comfortable in sin they were never born again.

I do not believe that a person that has been in true relationship with God would intentionally break that relationship. They may sin but they will immediately repent

[luchnia]

I agree with most of your answers except the first one.

Babies have the old nature set something that a child want and that does not belong to a child and the child will by nature take it. They do not know it is called stealing but it is stealing none the less.
Set a baby down that wants to be picked up and they will throw a tantrum. They do not know it is pride but is and it is a sin.
That is part of the sin nature we are all born with.
The law comes in when we kexplain sealing is taking something that not ours but they sinned not knowing that coveting was wrong.
The law comes in when we teach a child they can not always have their own way. Their pride may demand their way but that is sin.

This nature stays with us until we are born again. Then it passes away and we become new creations. Since we can't be unreborned we can not lose that born again nature. However if we pretended to be a Christian but never completely submitted to Christ we can still sin since we are not born again. Can a born again person sin yes but he will hate it, regret it and repent of it. If a person is comfortable in sin they were never born again.

I do not believe that a person that has been in true relationship with God would intentionally break that relationship. They may sin but they will immediately repent

Can you post scriptures where Jesus said the little ones sin or have a sin nature?

[Hill Top]

Who teaches children to sin? When do they learn?

I don't know if your questions are rhetorical or if you rely desire answers.
I'll assume the latter.
Children learn to sin from their parents and those with whom their parents associate.

Has anyone that was born ever been unborn?

None I have ever heard of.

So if a believe is born again a new creation when is he unborn again and part of the old creation.

I would say...never.
Sin would illustrate his failure to be reborn.

And while we are at it what is the old creation? When does it take place? At birth? 5 years old? 12 years old? Just when?

At conception the "old" man is known to God.

What is the distinct difference in the old creation and the new?

The "old" walks after the flesh, and the "new" walks after the Spirit.

Can anyone decide to be born again? Can they decide to be unborn again?

Every man can decide to be born again.
"Unborn" again, not unless apple seeds can start bringing forth onions.

I agree with most of your answers except the first one.
Babies have the old nature set something that a child want and that does not belong to a child and the child will by nature take it. They do not know it is called stealing but it is stealing none the less.
Set a baby down that wants to be picked up and they will throw a tantrum. They do not know it is pride but is and it is a sin.
That is part of the sin nature we are all born with.
The law comes in when we kexplain sealing is taking something that not ours but they sinned not knowing that coveting was wrong.
The law comes in when we teach a child they can not always have their own way. Their pride may demand their way but that is sin.

Are you really ready to call someone a sinner if they don't know their deed was sinful?
Like you said, children learn the "law", (whether or not it is God's Law doesn't matter here), and when they find out something is not allowed or tolerated they will quit doing it...openly.
And like I said, they learn those rules from their parents.

This nature stays with us until we are born again. Then it passes away and we become new creations. Since we can't be unreborned we can not lose that born again nature. However if we pretended to be a Christian but never completely submitted to Christ we can still sin since we are not born again. Can a born again person sin yes but he will hate it, regret it and repent of it. If a person is comfortable in sin they were never born again.

What is your difference between unsubmitted to Christ and sinner?
Your above paragraph doesn't differentiate them.
They both commit sin.

I do not believe that a person that has been in true relationship with God would intentionally break that relationship. They may sin but they will immediately repent

I call that "belief" an accommodation for sin.

[Bible Reader]

Romans 5:12 (NLT)
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

When I say a baby displays that sin nature I am not saying that baby is eternally damned. What I am saying is a baby is demanding thinking only of their needs. It is all about them, then as they get older they lie without anyone training them to do so.they throw tantrums and strike out at those they think are not giving them their way. And yes if that inborn nature is not changed by the born again process they will eventually end up in hell.

When a person is truly saved there is a huge transformation that takes place. It is no longer all about them, their temper and anger is changed, their concern about their physical well being is changed. They not longer look to get served but rather to become a servant. Their focus is no longer of this world this life but rather of a heavenly world and a heavenly life. Scripture says they become new creations.

So the question then becomes how does a new creation throw that aside to once again to walk as an old creation. Answer THEY CAN'T!

When a supposedly saved person rejects Christ the only possible explanation is they never born again. Their focus never changed, they were still looking to be served, they were worried about their physical well being instead of the condition of their spiritual being. They were concerned about the world instead of being concerned about heaven. Their joy was worldly rather than heavenly.
They demanded “their rights”! They were ready to fight instead of praying. They made things happen instead of letting God do it. They looked at their accomplishments instead of looking at God's glory. They were never born again they were trying to be a Christian in their own strength.

If you disagree reread your New Testament, read it not to try to prove me wrong but read it to see how how Born again Christians are described. How they interact with others, where they put their focus, are they served or servants, where they place their importance on the the things of this world or of heaven, do they care about personal wealth, achievements goals or are they looking to see Jesus glorified. Do they try to preserve this life or do they willing offer to sacrifice it for God's glory.

Then tell me how such a person with that kind of focus just cases off that nature and picks up ships old sin nature.