Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ If a sinner was NEVER born again as some say....

[Hill Top]

Noah, Moses, Abraham, and many other OT believers in God are in Heaven, never having been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.

Yes indeed, but Noah and Abraham were pre-Law, and Moses had the Law's atonements.
As did Peter.
The baptism into Christ, and into His death and burial, would have allowed them to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Without it, they all still walked after the flesh.

[Ironman]

Moses murdered an Egyptian, and in fear should he be found out buried his body in the sand and still made it into heaven?

Exodus 2:12, And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
Plus. Though the water came, Moses, He was severely punished. He was punished in a way that no amount of repentance could remove. His sins were forgiven, but the consequences of his sins could not be. Because Moses had sinned publicly and God wanting Israel to understand His righteousness, He would not relent. “Then I pleaded with the Lord at that time... I pray, let me cross over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, those pleasant mountains, and Lebanon, the Lord said to me: ‘Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter.’ You shall not cross over this Jordan.” (Deut. 3:23-27). There is a lot of important lessons we can learn from Moses. This sin is one of them. Though Moses had fallen short of God’s glory here, God forgave him. Yet the consequences of the sin were deeply distressing. So it was with David, Paul and Job. So will it be with us. We need to hate sin and realize that the consequences can sometimes be severe.

[Hill Top]

Moses murdered an Egyptian, and in fear should he be found out buried his body in the sand and still made it into heaven?

Exodus 2:12, And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
Plus. Though the water came, Moses, He was severely punished. He was punished in a way that no amount of repentance could remove. His sins were forgiven, but the consequences of his sins could not be. Because Moses had sinned publicly and God wanting Israel to understand His righteousness, He would not relent. “Then I pleaded with the Lord at that time... I pray, let me cross over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, those pleasant mountains, and Lebanon, the Lord said to me: ‘Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter.’ You shall not cross over this Jordan.” (Deut. 3:23-27). There is a lot of important lessons we can learn from Moses. This sin is one of them. Though Moses had fallen short of God’s glory here, God forgave him. Yet the consequences of the sin were deeply distressing. So it was with David, Paul and Job. So will it be with us. We need to hate sin and realize that the consequences can sometimes be severe.

Because of Moses' sin, he wasn't allowed into the "Promised Land".
That is the lesson I got from the story.
Our Promised Land is heaven, and I won't risk losing my entrance into that Land.
The "promised land" is a "picture" of heaven.

[bibleman]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

[Hill Top]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

[bibleman]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

Since you have said that a person can live without sin, being without Christ....

Man is BORN in sin: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Man gain his sin by being birth from the seed of Adam: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

All men are the CHILDREN of disobedience: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

All men without Christ are by nature the child of wrath: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

At what point and by what power are sinful men enabled to live without sin... without Christ?

[Hill Top]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

Since you have said that a person can live without sin, being without Christ....
Man is BORN in sin: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That interpretation serves only the catholic dogma.
What sin, exactly, was David, or anyone else, born in?

Man gain his sin by being birth from the seed of Adam: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Being born of Adam only brought us death.
Our sins are our own responsibility.

All men are the CHILDREN of disobedience: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes, men...not babies.

All men without Christ are by nature the child of wrath: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I agree with Paul.

At what point and by what power are sinful men enabled to live without sin... without Christ?

By their own power.
And they do it for reasons of self-preservation or gain.
A bank robber won't hold up the bank if a cop is inside.
A liar will tell the truth, if proof of a lie is present.
An adulterer won't take his neighbor's wife, if the husband is present.
Even murderers can't murder all day long.

[bibleman]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

Since you have said that a person can live without sin, being without Christ....
Man is BORN in sin: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That interpretation serves only the catholic dogma.
What sin, exactly, was David, or anyone else, born in?

Man gain his sin by being birth from the seed of Adam: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Being born of Adam only brought us death.
Our sins are our own responsibility.

All men are the CHILDREN of disobedience: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes, men...not babies.

All men without Christ are by nature the child of wrath: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I agree with Paul.

At what point and by what power are sinful men enabled to live without sin... without Christ?

By their own power.
And they do it for reasons of self-preservation or gain.
A bank robber won't hold up the bank if a cop is inside.
A liar will tell the truth, if proof of a lie is present.
An adulterer won't take his neighbor's wife, if the husband is present.
Even murderers can't murder all day long.

Well the Word says we are born in sin and the only way out is by the Second Adam, Jesus....

Believe it or not, that is still what the Word says!

[Hill Top]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

Since you have said that a person can live without sin, being without Christ....
Man is BORN in sin: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That interpretation serves only the catholic dogma.
What sin, exactly, was David, or anyone else, born in?

Man gain his sin by being birth from the seed of Adam: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Being born of Adam only brought us death.
Our sins are our own responsibility.

All men are the CHILDREN of disobedience: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes, men...not babies.

All men without Christ are by nature the child of wrath: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I agree with Paul.

At what point and by what power are sinful men enabled to live without sin... without Christ?

By their own power.
And they do it for reasons of self-preservation or gain.
A bank robber won't hold up the bank if a cop is inside.
A liar will tell the truth, if proof of a lie is present.
An adulterer won't take his neighbor's wife, if the husband is present.
Even murderers can't murder all day long.

Well the Word says we are born in sin and the only way out is by the Second Adam, Jesus....

Believe it or not, that is still what the Word says!

It was YOU who wrote in capital letters that man is born in sin.
To imagine that David's lament was somehow a gospel truth, only condemns children.
Do you honestly feel that all the aborted babies are going to hell for THEIR unremitted sins?

[bibleman]

He was also walking in the flesh.
Until men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, they also couldn't be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...born again. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

But didn't you tell us that a person could live without sin... without Christ?

Yes, until the real nature wins out.

Couldn't Peter have been living without sin in his own power and then backslide from his self?

That is what happened indeed.
But "backsliding from one's self" is an odd way to put it.
I guess when you get to the heart of it, that the term "backslide" is just another softening of the real issue... "hating God", any sin is a hate for yourself...so a backslide from your self.

Since you have said that a person can live without sin, being without Christ....
Man is BORN in sin: Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

That interpretation serves only the catholic dogma.
What sin, exactly, was David, or anyone else, born in?

Man gain his sin by being birth from the seed of Adam: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Being born of Adam only brought us death.
Our sins are our own responsibility.

All men are the CHILDREN of disobedience: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Yes, men...not babies.

All men without Christ are by nature the child of wrath: Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I agree with Paul.

At what point and by what power are sinful men enabled to live without sin... without Christ?

By their own power.
And they do it for reasons of self-preservation or gain.
A bank robber won't hold up the bank if a cop is inside.
A liar will tell the truth, if proof of a lie is present.
An adulterer won't take his neighbor's wife, if the husband is present.
Even murderers can't murder all day long.

Well the Word says we are born in sin and the only way out is by the Second Adam, Jesus....

Believe it or not, that is still what the Word says!

It was YOU who wrote in capital letters that man is born in sin.
To imagine that David's lament was somehow a gospel truth, only condemns children.
Do you honestly feel that all the aborted babies are going to hell for THEIR unremitted sins?

You know your belief that men can live sin free on their on is absolutely not found in Scripture.