Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

[bibleman]

And the disagreement is about your understanding of Pauls statement. If it was as clear as you propose then why can't you cite several scholars that agree with you?

You are the one that appealed to scholar's not me... The Word of God (Word of Paul) is good enough for me.

PLUS - now you can't come up with a scholar to support your unbiblical point of view.

No. You offered an opinion that you only support with another of your opinions.

Since when did 1 Thessalonians 2:13 become an opinion?

I didn’t say 1 Thes 2:13 was an opinion, please read it again. You offered an opinion that 1 Thes proved your position. Two different things.

Oh, here are but a few of the resourses that clearly indicate we have no certainity what Paul thought about the weight of his letters. (All paragraphs are from different articles and authors and are not my own.)

According to Dr. Evan Burns, “{The above verse} is directly referring to the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) … Based on this information, there is no way to know with absolute certainty whether all the writers of the New Testament did indeed know they were writing scripture.

Mark Allan Powell, in his recent New Testament introduction, affirms this view plainly, “The authors of our New Testament books did not know that they were writings scripture.” Gamble takes the same approach, “None of the writings which belong to the NT was composed as scripture…[they] were written for immediate and practical purposes within the early churches, and only gradually did they come to be valued and to be spoken of as ‘scripture’.”…. My contention here is simple: the NT authors show evidence that they understood their writings to contain authoritative apostolic tradition, but would not be the same as viewing those writings as equal to scripture.

Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He also might have anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it.

FIRST off Neither of those so called scholars are conservative scholars. Evans is once saved always saved and Powel is a ecumenical Lutheran. So where are the conservative scholars you spoke of?

SECOND That be as it may, I think I will take the WORD of God over the words of man.

No doubt about it, The Words of Paul were the Word of God when HE wrote them and still the Word of God today.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

THIRD All Scripture comes from God.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: inspiration - divinely breathed, Strong's

So it is up to you if you believe the Bible or not.

You can believe it and grow in your faith or doubt it and remain in ignorance.

Do you think that if Paul considered his writings as equal to the Torah, he would have treasured them in some safe, revered, place instead of giving them to men to transport to far away cities??
As he was an ex-Pharisee, he would know how God's word had been treated previously, and would have probably done the same with what God had given him.

I don't feel he felt his writings were without value, but were merely a record of what had been revealed to him.

No I disagree. Here is what I believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

[macca]

You are correct Pastor Leon.
What I (backslider) have learned over the last 35 years is that those who have the opposite belief have a great problem with what the Apostle Paul has written.

[Grandfather]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

[bibleman]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

Not me! I believe what Paul said about it. Paul had a revelation and it was from God at the point he got it and the point he said it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Notice it was the word of God when Paul said it and they "HEARD" it.

Now of course you are welcome to your opinion.

[bibleman]

You are correct Pastor Leon.
What I (backslider) have learned over the last 35 years is that those who have the opposite belief have a great problem with what the Apostle Paul has written.

Why thank you Macca!

Yes many people have problems with the revelation God gave to Paul.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

BUT as to YOU! You need to come back to God!
You will never be happy until you do!
Praying for YOU!

[Grandfather]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

Not me! I believe what Paul said about it. Paul had a revelation and it was from God at the point he got it and the point he said it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Notice it was the word of God when Paul said it and they "HEARD" it.

Now of course you are welcome to your opinion.

It might not be for you. However, for the rest of the world involved in biblical studies there is no clear consensus on how Paul thought his writings would be interpreted. Even the article YOU cited references “OR SOME OF THEM DID” which supports the position that not all did. Thus it is open for debate among those that are willing to acknowledge the truth of what is known.

As you said, you are welcome to your opinion, however that does not mean it is fact.

[bibleman]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

Not me! I believe what Paul said about it. Paul had a revelation and it was from God at the point he got it and the point he said it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Notice it was the word of God when Paul said it and they "HEARD" it.

Now of course you are welcome to your opinion.

It might not be for you. However, for the rest of the world involved in biblical studies there is no clear consensus on how Paul thought his writings would be interpreted. Even the article YOU cited references “OR SOME OF THEM DID” which supports the position that not all did. Thus it is open for debate among those that are willing to acknowledge the truth of what is known.

As you said, you are welcome to your opinion, however that does not mean it is fact.

To Scripture is a fact!

Paul's own testimony was:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So I agree with Paul.

[Grandfather]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

Not me! I believe what Paul said about it. Paul had a revelation and it was from God at the point he got it and the point he said it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Notice it was the word of God when Paul said it and they "HEARD" it.

Now of course you are welcome to your opinion.

It might not be for you. However, for the rest of the world involved in biblical studies there is no clear consensus on how Paul thought his writings would be interpreted. Even the article YOU cited references “OR SOME OF THEM DID” which supports the position that not all did. Thus it is open for debate among those that are willing to acknowledge the truth of what is known.

As you said, you are welcome to your opinion, however that does not mean it is fact.

To Scripture is a fact!

Paul's own testimony was:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So I agree with Paul.

You agree with your interpretation of what Paul wrote. Again even the article you cited states plainly that not all understood to be scripture AT THAT TIME.

Remember we are not discussing it in retrospect. There is no doubt it is now considered scripture. But nothing you’ve stated proves Paul considered everything he had written as such. Portions? Maybe? That is what your article states.

[bibleman]

It is difficult, if not impossible to prove what Paul considered his writings to be at the time he was writing them. There is not record of anyone asking him. There is not interview with CNN, FOX, The 700 Club, or any other news network. The best we, and scholars far more learned than us, is speculate. Even with that speculation there is no overwhelming consensus of opinion.

What is undeniable, is that it was not long into the life of the church that his writings took the position of scripture and remain there today.

Not me! I believe what Paul said about it. Paul had a revelation and it was from God at the point he got it and the point he said it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Notice it was the word of God when Paul said it and they "HEARD" it.

Now of course you are welcome to your opinion.

It might not be for you. However, for the rest of the world involved in biblical studies there is no clear consensus on how Paul thought his writings would be interpreted. Even the article YOU cited references “OR SOME OF THEM DID” which supports the position that not all did. Thus it is open for debate among those that are willing to acknowledge the truth of what is known.

As you said, you are welcome to your opinion, however that does not mean it is fact.

To Scripture is a fact!

Paul's own testimony was:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So I agree with Paul.

You agree with your interpretation of what Paul wrote. Again even the article you cited states plainly that not all understood to be scripture AT THAT TIME.

Remember we are not discussing it in retrospect. There is no doubt it is now considered scripture. But nothing you’ve stated proves Paul considered everything he had written as such. Portions? Maybe? That is what your article states.

Who cares what the article says? I posted that for you benefit, since you need external sources to believe the Bible.

ME? I simply believe what Paul wrote.

Here it is with NO interpretation at all.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[Grandfather]

Who cares what the article says? I posted that for you benefit, since you need external sources to believe the Bible.

ME? I simply believe what Paul wrote.

Here it is with NO interpretation at all.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Oh... you posted it for me, but you wrote...

So I thought I would post it here, underlining the pertinent parts (in other words those parts that help me the most).

For the record, I too believe what Paul wrote, how that was not the question that launched this discussion, but it is the statement you keep circling back to as your defense.

As to your "no interpretation at all" there is no such thing at NO interpretation at all.

1 Thes 2:13 - Jewish people often understood a rabbi's word as being the truth from God, but did not equate it on par with scripture but as close to equal to it as possible. So, what is Paul's word commending them for receiving it as rabbinical teaching, or as Holy Scripture? Both of those possibilities exist as "interpretations" of the text UNLESS one is blinding reading them with a personal bias. (Which you can continue to do as you have demonstrated.)

Gal 1:12 - I would ask you to define "the gospel preached" to which that passage is referring. If it is the same as what Jesus preached, then I would say Paul is simply "passing on" the message. However, if you include the expansive teaching and explaining of the gospel as "the gospel", but again you would have to INTERPRET what is meant by "gospel preached" and you say you don't do that. So, we can agree that where Paul said the exact same thing Jesus did, he preached the gospel. I have no problem with that, just as when you or I write the exact same thing we find within the pages of the Bible we understand we are writing scripture. However, when Paul wrote... Romans 16 - did he believe that would be scripture as well?

BTW - thank you for continuing to prove my point for me with your attempts to dispute the point.