Dake Bible Discussion BoardUndeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

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Grandfather
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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:11 pm
[
NOT my opinion but Paul's own testimony.

Paul himself declared HIS writings were the Word of God!

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And the disagreement is about your understanding of Pauls statement. If it was as clear as you propose then why can't you cite several scholars that agree with you?



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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:48 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:15 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:00 am
Grandfather wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:55 pm
bibleman wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:11 pm
[
NOT my opinion but Paul's own testimony.

Paul himself declared HIS writings were the Word of God!

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And the disagreement is about your understanding of Pauls statement. If it was as clear as you propose then why can't you cite several scholars that agree with you?
You are the one that appealed to scholar's not me... The Word of God (Word of Paul) is good enough for me.

PLUS - now you can't come up with a scholar to support your unbiblical point of view.
No. You offered an opinion that you only support with another of your opinions.
Since when did 1 Thessalonians 2:13 become an opinion?
I didn’t say 1 Thes 2:13 was an opinion, please read it again. You offered an opinion that 1 Thes proved your position. Two different things.

Oh, here are but a few of the resourses that clearly indicate we have no certainity what Paul thought about the weight of his letters. (All paragraphs are from different articles and authors and are not my own.)

According to Dr. Evan Burns, “{The above verse} is directly referring to the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) … Based on this information, there is no way to know with absolute certainty whether all the writers of the New Testament did indeed know they were writing scripture.

Mark Allan Powell, in his recent New Testament introduction, affirms this view plainly, “The authors of our New Testament books did not know that they were writings scripture.” Gamble takes the same approach, “None of the writings which belong to the NT was composed as scripture…[they] were written for immediate and practical purposes within the early churches, and only gradually did they come to be valued and to be spoken of as ‘scripture’.”…. My contention here is simple: the NT authors show evidence that they understood their writings to contain authoritative apostolic tradition, but would not be the same as viewing those writings as equal to scripture.

Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He also might have anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it.



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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:47 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:48 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:15 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:00 am
Grandfather wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:55 pm
bibleman wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:11 pm
[
NOT my opinion but Paul's own testimony.

Paul himself declared HIS writings were the Word of God!

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And the disagreement is about your understanding of Pauls statement. If it was as clear as you propose then why can't you cite several scholars that agree with you?
You are the one that appealed to scholar's not me... The Word of God (Word of Paul) is good enough for me.

PLUS - now you can't come up with a scholar to support your unbiblical point of view.
No. You offered an opinion that you only support with another of your opinions.
Since when did 1 Thessalonians 2:13 become an opinion?
I didn’t say 1 Thes 2:13 was an opinion, please read it again. You offered an opinion that 1 Thes proved your position. Two different things.

Oh, here are but a few of the resourses that clearly indicate we have no certainity what Paul thought about the weight of his letters. (All paragraphs are from different articles and authors and are not my own.)

According to Dr. Evan Burns, “{The above verse} is directly referring to the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) … Based on this information, there is no way to know with absolute certainty whether all the writers of the New Testament did indeed know they were writing scripture.

Mark Allan Powell, in his recent New Testament introduction, affirms this view plainly, “The authors of our New Testament books did not know that they were writings scripture.” Gamble takes the same approach, “None of the writings which belong to the NT was composed as scripture…[they] were written for immediate and practical purposes within the early churches, and only gradually did they come to be valued and to be spoken of as ‘scripture’.”…. My contention here is simple: the NT authors show evidence that they understood their writings to contain authoritative apostolic tradition, but would not be the same as viewing those writings as equal to scripture.

Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He also might have anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it.
FIRST off Neither of those so called scholars are conservative scholars. Evans is once saved always saved and Powel is a ecumenical Lutheran. So where are the conservative scholars you spoke of?

SECOND That be as it may, I think I will take the WORD of God over the words of man.

No doubt about it, The Words of Paul were the Word of God when HE wrote them and still the Word of God today.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

THIRD All Scripture comes from God.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: inspiration - divinely breathed, Strong's

So it is up to you if you believe the Bible or not.

You can believe it and grow in your faith or doubt it and remain in ignorance.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:27 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:36 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am

No interpretation at all!

This is what I believe:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason, we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

The question is... Do you believe Paul's writings, as found in the Bible, are the Word of God?
I’ve answered this question several times, but as a reminder to you. Yes, I do. I do not dispute that Paul’s letters are part of the Holy Scripture. What I have questioned is did Paul realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.
YES! No doubt about it, Paul DID realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
Notice what you quoted. Paul writing that what they heard not what he wrote. We are discussing what Paul WROTE. You do understand the difference and the importance of that difference don't you?



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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:27 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:36 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am

No interpretation at all!

This is what I believe:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason, we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

The question is... Do you believe Paul's writings, as found in the Bible, are the Word of God?
I’ve answered this question several times, but as a reminder to you. Yes, I do. I do not dispute that Paul’s letters are part of the Holy Scripture. What I have questioned is did Paul realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.
YES! No doubt about it, Paul DID realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
Notice what you quoted. Paul writing that what they heard not what he wrote. We are discussing what Paul WROTE. You do understand the difference and the importance of that difference don't you?
So you think Paul was teaching OLD Testament doctrine do you?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

So you think that: they had a problem with OLD TESTAMENT... possibly thinking it (OT) was the word of man, and Paul was thankful that they recognized the Old Testament was the word of God?

So you also think that: Paul was thankful that: "the word of God" OLD TESTAMENT, was "effectively works in you who believe." ???

Are you sure you want to continue down that route.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:44 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:27 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:36 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am

No interpretation at all!

This is what I believe:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason, we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

The question is... Do you believe Paul's writings, as found in the Bible, are the Word of God?
I’ve answered this question several times, but as a reminder to you. Yes, I do. I do not dispute that Paul’s letters are part of the Holy Scripture. What I have questioned is did Paul realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.
YES! No doubt about it, Paul DID realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
Notice what you quoted. Paul writing that what they heard not what he wrote. We are discussing what Paul WROTE. You do understand the difference and the importance of that difference don't you?
So you think Paul was teaching OLD Testament doctrine do you?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

So you think that: they had a problem with OLD TESTAMENT... possibly thinking it (OT) was the word of man, and Paul was thankful that they recognized the Old Testament was the word of God?

So you also think that: Paul was thankful that: "the word of God" OLD TESTAMENT, was "effectively works in you who believe." ???

Are you sure you want to continue down that route.
Here again, you are reading into what I have written, just like you are reading into Paul's letters. This is beginning to be a pattern with you. So, back to the question.

Did Paul believe what he was writing was equal to scripture. I hold that there is nothing definitive to determine this either way. Your repeated posts are about what people heard, not what Paul wrote, so even you have failed to provide undeniable proof. You may believe, you may hope, you may have an opinion, but you haven't proven anything.



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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:08 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:44 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:27 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:36 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:52 am

No interpretation at all!

This is what I believe:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason, we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

The question is... Do you believe Paul's writings, as found in the Bible, are the Word of God?
I’ve answered this question several times, but as a reminder to you. Yes, I do. I do not dispute that Paul’s letters are part of the Holy Scripture. What I have questioned is did Paul realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.
YES! No doubt about it, Paul DID realize that what he was writing would be considered as Holy Scripture as he, Paul, understood it to be.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
Notice what you quoted. Paul writing that what they heard not what he wrote. We are discussing what Paul WROTE. You do understand the difference and the importance of that difference don't you?
So you think Paul was teaching OLD Testament doctrine do you?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

So you think that: they had a problem with OLD TESTAMENT... possibly thinking it (OT) was the word of man, and Paul was thankful that they recognized the Old Testament was the word of God?

So you also think that: Paul was thankful that: "the word of God" OLD TESTAMENT, was "effectively works in you who believe." ???

Are you sure you want to continue down that route.
Did Paul believe what he was writing was equal to scripture. I hold that there is nothing definitive to determine this either way. Your repeated posts are about what people heard, not what Paul wrote, so even you have failed to provide undeniable proof. You may believe, you may hope, you may have an opinion, but you haven't proven anything.
If Paul did NOT believe his writing was equal to Scripture... then why did PAUL say: "when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, ?

And are you saying Peter believed what Paul WROTE was Scripture but Paul did not?

2 Peter 3:15 ...our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


2 Peter 3:16 (TEV) This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which ignorant and unstable people explain falsely, as they do with other passages of the Scriptures.

No my friend, you are wrong as wrong can be. Paul's writings were Scripture when written under the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:12 (NKJV) For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And Paul knew it as he stated in 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by bibleman »

Some time ago, I whined and cried relentlessly about Paul's writings being the Word of God at the time he wrote them.

Got an advertisement to day from Logos about a Systematic Theology they are wanting to sell me and just so happened that the excerpt they sent was on this subject.

So I thought I would post it here, underlining the pertinent parts (in other words those parts that help me the most).
Do we find a statement anywhere to the effect that what Paul wrote as an apostle was the Word of God? Yes, we do—in the passage that George E. Ladd refers to as the “earliest reference to the fact that the apostolic church regarded the Pauline letters—or at least some of them—as Scripture.”9

In 2 Peter 3:15–16 Peter declares: “Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of … things … which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures [καὶ τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς, kai tas loipas graphas], to their own destruction.”

It is important that we observe four things about this statement.

First, Peter declares that what Paul wrote, not just to his (Peter’s) readers, but in all his letters, he wrote according to the wisdom given him: that is, Paul’s letters contain divine wisdom.

Second, Peter places Paul’s letters within the category of divinely inspired Scripture by his particular turn of phrase, “also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Third, their divine authority is seen in Peter’s statement that when the untaught and unstable distort the meaning of Paul’s letters, they do so to their own destruction.

Finally, Peter says these things about Paul’s letters even though he himself receives a sharp rebuke in one of them for his inconsistent practice at Antioch (see Gal. 2:11), showing thereby that he was willing to place himself under the authority of the apostolic word that was given to Paul.

Peter vouches, then, for both the intrinsically divine origin and the authority of Paul’s letters, which is precisely what one might expect in light of the statements that Paul himself makes about the origin of his message."

A NEW SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH by ROBERT L. REYMOND, THOMAS NELSON PUBLISHERS ® Nashville


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:09 pm
Some time ago, I whined and cried relentlessly about Paul's writings being the Word of God at the time he wrote them.

Got an advertisement to day from Logos about a Systematic Theology they are wanting to sell me and just so happened that the excerpt they sent was on this subject.

So I thought I would post it here, underlining the pertinent parts (in other words those parts that help me the most).
Do we find a statement anywhere to the effect that what Paul wrote as an apostle was the Word of God? Yes, we do—in the passage that George E. Ladd refers to as the “earliest reference to the fact that the apostolic church regarded the Pauline letters—or at least some of them—as Scripture.”9

In 2 Peter 3:15–16 Peter declares: “Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of … things … which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures [καὶ τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς, kai tas loipas graphas], to their own destruction.”

It is important that we observe four things about this statement.

First, Peter declares that what Paul wrote, not just to his (Peter’s) readers, but in all his letters, he wrote according to the wisdom given him: that is, Paul’s letters contain divine wisdom.

Second, Peter places Paul’s letters within the category of divinely inspired Scripture by his particular turn of phrase, “also the rest of the Scriptures.”

Third, their divine authority is seen in Peter’s statement that when the untaught and unstable distort the meaning of Paul’s letters, they do so to their own destruction.

Finally, Peter says these things about Paul’s letters even though he himself receives a sharp rebuke in one of them for his inconsistent practice at Antioch (see Gal. 2:11), showing thereby that he was willing to place himself under the authority of the apostolic word that was given to Paul.

Peter vouches, then, for both the intrinsically divine origin and the authority of Paul’s letters, which is precisely what one might expect in light of the statements that Paul himself makes about the origin of his message."

A NEW SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH by ROBERT L. REYMOND, THOMAS NELSON PUBLISHERS ® Nashville
earliest reference to the fact that the apostolic church regarded the Pauline letters—or at least some of them—as Scripture.

Or at least some of them. So it is still questionable. Btw the question was did Paul view them as scripture when writing them. Which is still a different question that did others view them as scripture



Hill Top
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Re: Undeniable proof that Paul's writings were the Word of God!

Post by Hill Top »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:34 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:47 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:48 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:15 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:00 am
Grandfather wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:55 pm
bibleman wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:11 pm
[
NOT my opinion but Paul's own testimony.

Paul himself declared HIS writings were the Word of God!

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And the disagreement is about your understanding of Pauls statement. If it was as clear as you propose then why can't you cite several scholars that agree with you?
You are the one that appealed to scholar's not me... The Word of God (Word of Paul) is good enough for me.

PLUS - now you can't come up with a scholar to support your unbiblical point of view.
No. You offered an opinion that you only support with another of your opinions.
Since when did 1 Thessalonians 2:13 become an opinion?
I didn’t say 1 Thes 2:13 was an opinion, please read it again. You offered an opinion that 1 Thes proved your position. Two different things.

Oh, here are but a few of the resourses that clearly indicate we have no certainity what Paul thought about the weight of his letters. (All paragraphs are from different articles and authors and are not my own.)

According to Dr. Evan Burns, “{The above verse} is directly referring to the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament) … Based on this information, there is no way to know with absolute certainty whether all the writers of the New Testament did indeed know they were writing scripture.

Mark Allan Powell, in his recent New Testament introduction, affirms this view plainly, “The authors of our New Testament books did not know that they were writings scripture.” Gamble takes the same approach, “None of the writings which belong to the NT was composed as scripture…[they] were written for immediate and practical purposes within the early churches, and only gradually did they come to be valued and to be spoken of as ‘scripture’.”…. My contention here is simple: the NT authors show evidence that they understood their writings to contain authoritative apostolic tradition, but would not be the same as viewing those writings as equal to scripture.

Paul certainly intended his readers to take his letters as authoritative. He also might have anticipated that they would be incorporated into some collection of teachings as the rabbinic Jews collected the wisdom of the sages, prophets and teachers into collections as sacred writings. But we can't know if Paul anticipated the creation of the New Testament nor can we know if he expected his letters to be represented in it.
FIRST off Neither of those so called scholars are conservative scholars. Evans is once saved always saved and Powel is a ecumenical Lutheran. So where are the conservative scholars you spoke of?

SECOND That be as it may, I think I will take the WORD of God over the words of man.

No doubt about it, The Words of Paul were the Word of God when HE wrote them and still the Word of God today.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TLB) 13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (TEV) 13 And there is another reason why we always give thanks to God. When we brought you God's message, you heard it and accepted it, not as a message from human beings but as God's message, which indeed it is. For God is at work in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (AMP) 13 And we also [especially] thank God continually for this, that when you received the message of God [which you heard] from us, you welcomed it not as the word of [mere] men, but as it truly is, the Word of God, which is effectually at work in you who believe [exercising its superhuman power in those who adhere to and trust in and rely on it].

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (CSBBible) 13 This is why we constantly thank God, because when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you welcomed it not as a human message, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also works effectively in you who believe.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NKJV) 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

THIRD All Scripture comes from God.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: inspiration - divinely breathed, Strong's

So it is up to you if you believe the Bible or not.

You can believe it and grow in your faith or doubt it and remain in ignorance.
Do you think that if Paul considered his writings as equal to the Torah, he would have treasured them in some safe, revered, place instead of giving them to men to transport to far away cities??
As he was an ex-Pharisee, he would know how God's word had been treated previously, and would have probably done the same with what God had given him.

I don't feel he felt his writings were without value, but were merely a record of what had been revealed to him.



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