Dake Bible Discussion BoardDake and Divine Attributes

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Grandfather
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:54 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:18 am
Ironman wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:32 pm
Ironman wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:30 pm
Grandfather.

When Jesus spoke of His Father He always said, my Father, our Father the Father, WHO IS IN HEAVEN. He never once said, my Father, our Father, the Father, WHO IS EVERYWHERE.

Where is Jesus now? Mark 16: 19, so then after the Lord had spoken unto them, HE WAS RECIEVED UP INTO HEAVEN, and sat on the right hand of God.

Where is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father?? >IN HEAVEN< that's where. The Father, God, is not everywhere and Jesus is not sitting EVERYWHERE, beside the Father, God.
To answer your question directly, and I wish to do so, I need to understand the "rules" you are applying to your interpretation of scripture. More specifically, how you handle passages that are in apparent contradiction. For example, passages that say God is everywhere vs passages that say God is in a specific location. Or passages that say God has knows everything vs passages that indicate God is learning.
It is important for me to understand why people are predisposed to one answer, and not the other. In your particular case, tell me what justifies your position of explaining the "everywhere" passage as not really having the simple meaning of everywhere, but at the same moment, the "location" passages mean exactly that. Why is the reverse not possible?
Once you can make that robust defense, then I will answer you. I would enjoy engaging with you, but I want to fully understand the ground on which we are standing first, I don't want shifting principles to impede the discussion.
Since you are having problems at answering a simple question, let me take a stab at it.

Ironman asked: here is Jesus now? Mark 16: 19, so then after the Lord had spoken unto them, HE WAS RECIEVED UP INTO HEAVEN, and sat on the right hand of God.

Leon answered: Jesus is now at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

Ironman asked: Where is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father?? >IN HEAVEN< that's where. The Father, God, is not everywhere and Jesus is not sitting EVERYWHERE, beside the Father, God.

Leon answered: Correct BOTH Jesus and the Father God are in Heaven. Their "spiritual presence" is everywhere but NOT their "spiritual body."

Now see, grandfather... that was not so hard was it?
I only wish it was that easy. I agree the simple reading of those passages indicates Jesus is seated in heaven. However, I also can read other passages that indicate a true omnipresence of God. What I see from those here, is an "explaining away" of the simple reading of those passages in defense of God being limited to a single location.
To be fair, if one allows a reasonable "re-reading" of the passage to bring out a different perspective. (example, God's presence if everywhere due to His angels acting as his agents, or something similar) Then, why cannot a similar explanation that dismisses the specific location approach?

Let be consistent, if you are going to make some "adjustments" to the reading of one side of the text, allow differing views the same freedom on their side of the text.



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bibleman
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:07 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:54 am
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:18 am
Ironman wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:32 pm
Ironman wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:30 pm
Grandfather.

When Jesus spoke of His Father He always said, my Father, our Father the Father, WHO IS IN HEAVEN. He never once said, my Father, our Father, the Father, WHO IS EVERYWHERE.

Where is Jesus now? Mark 16: 19, so then after the Lord had spoken unto them, HE WAS RECIEVED UP INTO HEAVEN, and sat on the right hand of God.

Where is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father?? >IN HEAVEN< that's where. The Father, God, is not everywhere and Jesus is not sitting EVERYWHERE, beside the Father, God.
To answer your question directly, and I wish to do so, I need to understand the "rules" you are applying to your interpretation of scripture. More specifically, how you handle passages that are in apparent contradiction. For example, passages that say God is everywhere vs passages that say God is in a specific location. Or passages that say God has knows everything vs passages that indicate God is learning.
It is important for me to understand why people are predisposed to one answer, and not the other. In your particular case, tell me what justifies your position of explaining the "everywhere" passage as not really having the simple meaning of everywhere, but at the same moment, the "location" passages mean exactly that. Why is the reverse not possible?
Once you can make that robust defense, then I will answer you. I would enjoy engaging with you, but I want to fully understand the ground on which we are standing first, I don't want shifting principles to impede the discussion.
Since you are having problems at answering a simple question, let me take a stab at it.

Ironman asked: here is Jesus now? Mark 16: 19, so then after the Lord had spoken unto them, HE WAS RECIEVED UP INTO HEAVEN, and sat on the right hand of God.

Leon answered: Jesus is now at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

Ironman asked: Where is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father?? >IN HEAVEN< that's where. The Father, God, is not everywhere and Jesus is not sitting EVERYWHERE, beside the Father, God.

Leon answered: Correct BOTH Jesus and the Father God are in Heaven. Their "spiritual presence" is everywhere but NOT their "spiritual body."

Now see, grandfather... that was not so hard was it?
I only wish it was that easy. I agree the simple reading of those passages indicates Jesus is seated in heaven. However, I also can read other passages that indicate a true omnipresence of God. What I see from those here, is an "explaining away" of the simple reading of those passages in defense of God being limited to a single location.
To be fair, if one allows a reasonable "re-reading" of the passage to bring out a different perspective. (example, God's presence if everywhere due to His angels acting as his agents, or something similar) Then, why cannot a similar explanation that dismisses the specific location approach?

Let be consistent, if you are going to make some "adjustments" to the reading of one side of the text, allow differing views the same freedom on their side of the text.
Allow me further information please.

What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:52 am
Allow me further information please.

What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?
Good question! This brings us back to the basic premise of my question. When confronted with the apparent contradiction of passages that claim God is everywhere and those saying God has a spirit-body (and thus cannot be everywhere)

Why does one presuppose one position and "explain away" the other in order to defend one side of the argument?
In this case, you make a defense of a spirit body that limits God in location.
Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?

The latter would allow for an explanation of God being in a location, but would also allow for God being present everywhere.



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bibleman
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:14 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:52 am
Allow me further information please.

What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?
Good question! This brings us back to the basic premise of my question. When confronted with the apparent contradiction of passages that claim God is everywhere and those saying God has a spirit-body (and thus cannot be everywhere)

Why does one presuppose one position and "explain away" the other in order to defend one side of the argument?
In this case, you make a defense of a spirit body that limits God in location.
Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?

The latter would allow for an explanation of God being in a location, but would also allow for God being present everywhere.
You ask: "Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?"

Because Jacob wrestled with God. And he could not have wrestled with a spirit-body that encompasses every known physical object.

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:32 am
You ask: "Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?"

Because Jacob wrestled with God. And he could not have wrestled with a spirit-body that encompasses every known physical object.

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why couldn't Jacob wrestle with a God that encompasses everything? Certainly, it isn't because you say it cannot be.
Again you are presupposing the solution.

Additionally, the case could be made he was wrestling with one party of the trinity. Again allow for him to wrestle with God and yet God still being everywhere.

But, it is you that are attempting to make the case that God is limited by a spirit-body. I am simply asking you to defend it against possible alternatives. Which, you seem to be struggling to do. As I have said to others, simply repeating your position does not make it true.



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bibleman
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:56 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:32 am
You ask: "Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?"

Because Jacob wrestled with God. And he could not have wrestled with a spirit-body that encompasses every known physical object.

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why couldn't Jacob wrestle with a God that encompasses everything? Certainly, it isn't because you say it cannot be.
Again you are presupposing the solution.

Additionally, the case could be made he was wrestling with one party of the trinity. Again allow for him to wrestle with God and yet God still being everywhere.

But, it is you that are attempting to make the case that God is limited by a spirit-body. I am simply asking you to defend it against possible alternatives. Which, you seem to be struggling to do. As I have said to others, simply repeating your position does not make it true.
No presupposing the solution at all.

Jacob was not tall enough to wrestle with "spirit-body" of a God that encompasses every known physical object.

What Is The Average Height Of An Israeli Man - Average male height: 175.6 cm (5′ 9.2″)

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Posts: 484
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:06 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:56 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:32 am
You ask: "Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?"

Because Jacob wrestled with God. And he could not have wrestled with a spirit-body that encompasses every known physical object.

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why couldn't Jacob wrestle with a God that encompasses everything? Certainly, it isn't because you say it cannot be.
Again you are presupposing the solution.

Additionally, the case could be made he was wrestling with one party of the trinity. Again allow for him to wrestle with God and yet God still being everywhere.

But, it is you that are attempting to make the case that God is limited by a spirit-body. I am simply asking you to defend it against possible alternatives. Which, you seem to be struggling to do. As I have said to others, simply repeating your position does not make it true.
No presupposing the solution at all.

Jacob was not tall enough to wrestle with "spirit-body" of a God that encompasses every known physical object.

What Is The Average Height Of An Israeli Man - Average male height: 175.6 cm (5′ 9.2″)

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Again you are presupposing -
First, where does the text say there was physical wrestling taking place? Don't assume because of the "could not overpower him" assumes physical, it may be that he could not dissuade him,(just as many of our discussions have not overpowered the other) The touching of the hip, is a description of what occurred, but it does not necessitate physical wrestling prior to its occurrence.

Second where does it state the size of the being Jacob wrestled with?

Finally, the text says he saw God face to face, nothing suggests he physically wrestled with God. The word in Gen 32 for wrestle is used elsewhere in scripture and it applies to a mental/emotional struggle.

22 The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven children,[a] and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and everything else that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[c] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

You have approached the text anticipating, presupposing, your conclusions, but there is nothing in the text to support them other than your desire to have it be so.



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bibleman
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:50 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:06 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:56 am
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:32 am
You ask: "Why cannot a case be made for God's spirit-body to be so immense that it encompasses every known physical object?"

Because Jacob wrestled with God. And he could not have wrestled with a spirit-body that encompasses every known physical object.

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why couldn't Jacob wrestle with a God that encompasses everything? Certainly, it isn't because you say it cannot be.
Again you are presupposing the solution.

Additionally, the case could be made he was wrestling with one party of the trinity. Again allow for him to wrestle with God and yet God still being everywhere.

But, it is you that are attempting to make the case that God is limited by a spirit-body. I am simply asking you to defend it against possible alternatives. Which, you seem to be struggling to do. As I have said to others, simply repeating your position does not make it true.
No presupposing the solution at all.

Jacob was not tall enough to wrestle with "spirit-body" of a God that encompasses every known physical object.

What Is The Average Height Of An Israeli Man - Average male height: 175.6 cm (5′ 9.2″)

NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Again you are presupposing -
First, where does the text say there was physical wrestling taking place? Don't assume because of the "could not overpower him" assumes physical, it may be that he could not dissuade him,(just as many of our discussions have not overpowered the other) The touching of the hip, is a description of what occurred, but it does not necessitate physical wrestling prior to its occurrence.

Second where does it state the size of the being Jacob wrestled with?

Finally, the text says he saw God face to face, nothing suggests he physically wrestled with God. The word in Gen 32 for wrestle is used elsewhere in scripture and it applies to a mental/emotional struggle.

22 The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven children,[a] and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and everything else that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[c] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”

You have approached the text anticipating, presupposing, your conclusions, but there is nothing in the text to support them other than your desire to have it be so.


NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:16 pm
NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why? Your robust defense of Jacob wrestling with God as proof of God's spirit body being limited was shown to be filled with preconceived notions, assumptions, and untruths.



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bibleman
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Re: Dake and Divine Attributes

Post by bibleman »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:26 pm
bibleman wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:16 pm
NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"
Why? Your robust defense of Jacob wrestling with God as proof of God's spirit body being limited was shown to be filled with preconceived notions, assumptions, and untruths.
NOW could you please answer this question? "What passage of Scripture tells us that the "spirit-body" of God is everywhere?"

So until you answer, I guess the discussion is over.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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