Dake Bible Discussion BoardTransgression of the Doctrine of Christ

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

What do you think of the Modern English Version's rendering of this passage?
Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits.

Modern English Version. (2014). (Thinline Edition, Heb 6:1–3). Lake Mary, FL: Passio.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

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Hill Top
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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:15 pm
What do you think of the Modern English Version's rendering of this passage?
Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits.

Modern English Version. (2014). (Thinline Edition, Heb 6:1–3). Lake Mary, FL: Passio.
I wonder why they were afraid (?) to use the word "baptism".
Could it be that they don't believe water and Spirit baptism are crucial for salvation?



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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:15 pm
What do you think of the Modern English Version's rendering of this passage?
Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits.

Modern English Version. (2014). (Thinline Edition, Heb 6:1–3). Lake Mary, FL: Passio.
I wonder why they were afraid (?) to use the word "baptism".
Could it be that they don't believe water and Spirit baptism are crucial for salvation?
Who said they were afraid?
Please, provide a citation proving that they were afraid?


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

Hill Top
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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:29 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:15 pm
What do you think of the Modern English Version's rendering of this passage?
Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits.

Modern English Version. (2014). (Thinline Edition, Heb 6:1–3). Lake Mary, FL: Passio.
I wonder why they were afraid (?) to use the word "baptism".
Could it be that they don't believe water and Spirit baptism are crucial for salvation?
Who said they were afraid?
Please, provide a citation proving that they were afraid?
Did you notice my "question mark"?
I used it to infer there may be some other reason besides fear...like open revolt to what they have replaced.



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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by macca »

I don't like the word "washing " ....
The KJV renders it 'doctrine of baptisms '
Which the Christians would understand.
Why would Paul write ' the teaching of washings '
Which has no point of reference in the body of Christ.?



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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:46 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:29 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:27 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:15 pm
What do you think of the Modern English Version's rendering of this passage?
Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. This we will do if God permits.

Modern English Version. (2014). (Thinline Edition, Heb 6:1–3). Lake Mary, FL: Passio.
I wonder why they were afraid (?) to use the word "baptism".
Could it be that they don't believe water and Spirit baptism are crucial for salvation?
Who said they were afraid?
Please, provide a citation proving that they were afraid?
Did you notice my "question mark"?
I used it to infer there may be some other reason besides fear...like open revolt to what they have replaced.
No. I didn't notice the question mark. My apologies.

A source from another publisher indicates the following:
6:2 baptisms Probably refers to ceremonial Jewish washings (see 9:10), not Christian baptism.

Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., … Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Heb 6:2). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
It could be that the publishers of the Modern English Version translated it as "washings" rather than baptisms due to coming to the same conclusion.

Not sure how we could further investigate what is meant by this word and what the apostle had in mind. I am very familiar with the a common version of the teaching from the word "baptisms" in the KJV on this verse from a Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word of Fath position. But, I am not familiar with the idea when the Greek word is translated "washings" as a probable reference to Jewish ceremonial washings.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

macca wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 am
I don't like the word "washing " ....
The KJV renders it 'doctrine of baptisms '
Which the Christians would understand.
Why would Paul write ' the teaching of washings '
Which has no point of reference in the body of Christ.?
It could be that Paul(Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews) wasn't writing to "Christians." At least not Gentile Christians. Perhaps, he was writing to Hebrew Christians who would have understood Jewish ceremonial "washings"?

Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests "washings" as an alternative translation in his notes on this verse.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:40 am
macca wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 am
I don't like the word "washing " ....
The KJV renders it 'doctrine of baptisms '
Which the Christians would understand.
Why would Paul write ' the teaching of washings '
Which has no point of reference in the body of Christ.?
It could be that Paul(Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews) wasn't writing to "Christians." At least not Gentile Christians. Perhaps, he was writing to Hebrew Christians who would have understood Jewish ceremonial "washings"?

Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests "washings" as an alternative translation in his notes on this verse.
This certainly has a number of challenges especially in light of baptism/immersion into various things such as water baptism verses baptism in Christ verses ceremonial washings. What is meant in Hebrews is not detailed out so we can only surmise. Interesting that doctrine is singular and baptisms is used in the plural sense in that verse.

It may be all the doctrine/instruction of baptisms or simply ceremonial washings. Since baptism means more than washing as there are baptisms that have nothing to do with water (in the cloud, in fire, in Christ, in the Spirit, etc.) this brings more into play when trying to determine what is meant.

This is one of those things that is difficult contextually. At any rate the author is stating to move away from the doctrine of baptisms and other things which does indicate the reader must grow into a maturity beyond the elementary things.


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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:03 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:40 am
macca wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 am
I don't like the word "washing " ....
The KJV renders it 'doctrine of baptisms '
Which the Christians would understand.
Why would Paul write ' the teaching of washings '
Which has no point of reference in the body of Christ.?
It could be that Paul(Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews) wasn't writing to "Christians." At least not Gentile Christians. Perhaps, he was writing to Hebrew Christians who would have understood Jewish ceremonial "washings"?

Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests "washings" as an alternative translation in his notes on this verse.
This certainly has a number of challenges especially in light of baptism/immersion into various things such as water baptism verses baptism in Christ verses ceremonial washings. What is meant in Hebrews is not detailed out so we can only surmise. Interesting that doctrine is singular and baptisms is used in the plural sense in that verse.

It may be all the doctrine/instruction of baptisms or simply ceremonial washings. Since baptism means more than washing as there are baptisms that have nothing to do with water (in the cloud, in fire, in Christ, in the Spirit, etc.) this brings more into play when trying to determine what is meant.

This is one of those things that is difficult contextually. At any rate the author is stating to move away from the doctrine of baptisms and other things which does indicate the reader must grow into a maturity beyond the elementary things.
Could be, but the writer of Heb's is discussing the absolute basics in chapter 6.
Then the "go on" to other things.



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Re: Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:03 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:40 am
macca wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:52 am
I don't like the word "washing " ....
The KJV renders it 'doctrine of baptisms '
Which the Christians would understand.
Why would Paul write ' the teaching of washings '
Which has no point of reference in the body of Christ.?
It could be that Paul(Assuming Paul wrote Hebrews) wasn't writing to "Christians." At least not Gentile Christians. Perhaps, he was writing to Hebrew Christians who would have understood Jewish ceremonial "washings"?

Dr. E.W. Bullinger suggests "washings" as an alternative translation in his notes on this verse.
This certainly has a number of challenges especially in light of baptism/immersion into various things such as water baptism verses baptism in Christ verses ceremonial washings. What is meant in Hebrews is not detailed out so we can only surmise. Interesting that doctrine is singular and baptisms is used in the plural sense in that verse.

It may be all the doctrine/instruction of baptisms or simply ceremonial washings. Since baptism means more than washing as there are baptisms that have nothing to do with water (in the cloud, in fire, in Christ, in the Spirit, etc.) this brings more into play when trying to determine what is meant.

This is one of those things that is difficult contextually. At any rate the author is stating to move away from the doctrine of baptisms and other things which does indicate the reader must grow into a maturity beyond the elementary things.
I will, if time permits, find the research articles on baptism. The meaning of the word baptism was revealed in a pickling recipe. It was to soak for the time necessary to absorb the nature/flavor of the material that it was soaking in.

Another note, baptism was not exclusive to the Christian community. For example the baptism of John (the baptist) was nothing unusual in the sense of baptism itself. Teachers and Rabbi’s would often hold baptism ceremonies to allow their followers to identify with the teacher/rabbi.



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