Dake Bible Discussion BoardWords mean something.

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
macca
He that will Love Life, and See Good Days, Let Him Refrain His Lips from Guile
Posts: 1375
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:37 am
Location: australia

Re: Words mean something.

Post by macca »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:41 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:13 pm
Actually, he is a non-sinner when he quits committing sin.
As Peter pointed out in Acts 2:38, repentance (from sin) comes first.
Thanks, exactly. When one quits sin they would be a non-sinner. There are many non-saved people that do more than what some so-called saved saints do.

Whether Cornelius sinned or not is something we have record of. What we do know from record is that the gospel of Jesus was preached to him at a later time and he believed (Acts 10). Also, we know nothing about Cornelius repenting of any sin prior to the time he heard the gospel, since there is no record of when, or if, he repented.

He may have started doing righteous things at a young age for all we know. We know that fearing God, praying, giving alms, being religious, seeing visions, and being a devout man did not save his soul nor indicates he had need to repent of anything.

What we do know is he found out about Jesus in Acts 10 (not at Pentecost) when Peter told him with others about Jesus and they believed. In my opinion, that is what saves a man and what saved Cornelius.

Cornelius is a great example of a good man believing in God, doing righteous deeds, that needed the gospel of Jesus to be saved just like all the rest need it.



Spot on :angel:



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Moderator
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:41 am
Cornelius is a great example of a good man believing in God, doing righteous deeds, that needed the gospel of Jesus to be saved just like all the rest need it.
Luchnia,
It might take some time, but there is a Baptist preacher who used to be of the Arminian (Free Will) persuasion who converted to a more Calvinistic outlook who has put together what I consider to be an excellent study on Cornelius' conversion that you might like to read and/or listen to. He believes that there are at least five major facets of salvation and that being born again must precede conversion and is not up to the will of the person being born again. Thus, in his view, Cornelius was already saved prior to the angel instructing him to send men to Joppa, but Cornelius still needed the other facets of salvation.

When Was Cornelius Born Again

When Was Cornelius Saved?

The Five Phases of Salvation

A summary of the Five Phases of Salvation from this point of view:
Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly, then study two charts with the Bible proof and explanation. If you love understanding, you will love the charts.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
Just thought you might be interested in this. Not suggesting that agreement with this is necessary.

Here are links to two charts that help explain the definitions and components of salvation in this view.

Chart 1: Salvation Divided By the Scriptures – Definitions (2 Timothy 2:15)

Chart 2: Salvation Divided By the Scriptures – Components (2 Timothy 2:15)

Thank you.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

User avatar
luchnia
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2150
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Words mean something.

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:32 am
luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:41 am
Cornelius is a great example of a good man believing in God, doing righteous deeds, that needed the gospel of Jesus to be saved just like all the rest need it.
Luchnia,
It might take some time, but there is a Baptist preacher who used to be of the Arminian (Free Will) persuasion who converted to a more Calvinistic outlook who has put together what I consider to be an excellent study on Cornelius' conversion that you might like to read and/or listen to. He believes that there are at least five major facets of salvation and that being born again must precede conversion and is not up to the will of the person being born again. Thus, in his view, Cornelius was already saved prior to the angel instructing him to send men to Joppa, but Cornelius still needed the other facets of salvation.

When Was Cornelius Born Again

When Was Cornelius Saved?

The Five Phases of Salvation

A summary of the Five Phases of Salvation from this point of view:
Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation. Let us learn the five phases briefly, then study two charts with the Bible proof and explanation. If you love understanding, you will love the charts.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
Just thought you might be interested in this. Not suggesting that agreement with this is necessary.

Here are links to two charts that help explain the definitions and components of salvation in this view.

Chart 1: Salvation Divided By the Scriptures – Definitions (2 Timothy 2:15)

Chart 2: Salvation Divided By the Scriptures – Components (2 Timothy 2:15)

Thank you.
Thanks for posting this. I remember years ago reading some similar views with extremely strong arguments. I will look into this.


Word up!

Hill Top
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2128
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:41 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:13 pm
Actually, he is a non-sinner when he quits committing sin.
As Peter pointed out in Acts 2:38, repentance (from sin) comes first.
Thanks, exactly. When one quits sin they would be a non-sinner. There are many non-saved people that do more than what some so-called saved saints do.
"So-called" is right.
Whether Cornelius sinned or not is something we have (no) record of. What we do know from record is that the gospel of Jesus was preached to him at a later time and he believed (Acts 10). Also, we know nothing about Cornelius repenting of any sin prior to the time he heard the gospel, since there is no record of when, or if, he repented.
The "proof is in the pudding".
Had he been non-repentant, he would have experienced nothing of what Acts recorded.
"Go heareth not sinners." (John 9:31)
He may have started doing righteous things at a young age for all we know. We know that fearing God, praying, giving alms, being religious, seeing visions, and being a devout man did not save his soul...
You are correct.
... nor indicates he had need to repent of anything.
You kinda lost me there.
What we do know is he found out about Jesus in Acts 10 (not at Pentecost) when Peter told him with others about Jesus and they believed. In my opinion, that is what saves a man and what saved Cornelius.
I don't recall mentioning Pentecost, but you are right about those things that will lead to salvation.
Cornelius is a great example of a good man believing in God, doing righteous deeds, that needed the gospel of Jesus to be saved just like all the rest need it.
He is also a great example of God reacting to his piety with guidance unto salvation.
God doesn't allow those who love Him to wallow in desperation.
Thanks be to God !



Hill Top
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2128
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:32 am
The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies,...

... and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
I guess he doesn't preach freedom from sin, as he writes our "thorough purging of sin" is in the future.
Frankly speaking, I was "thoroughly purged" of my past sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Moderator
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:58 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:32 am
The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies,...

... and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
I guess he doesn't preach freedom from sin, as he writes our "thorough purging of sin" is in the future.
Frankly speaking, I was "thoroughly purged" of my past sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
No question that his beliefs are different than yours. It's different from most people's on this board, too.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

Grandfather
No Plague Shall Come Nigh Them that Make the Lord Their Habitation
Posts: 1306
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:51 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Grandfather »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:53 am
Hill Top wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:58 pm
I guess he doesn't preach freedom from sin, as he writes our "thorough purging of sin" is in the future.
Frankly speaking, I was "thoroughly purged" of my past sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
No question that his beliefs are different than yours. It's different from most people's on this board, too.
I wish there was a “like” button. I have determined that someone is fully committed to their belief and is fully committed to defending it regardless of how ambiguous they must become when taking other positions, or defining terms. The “cause” must be defended at all cost.



User avatar
luchnia
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2150
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Words mean something.

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:30 am
I have determined that someone is fully committed to their belief and is fully committed to defending it regardless of how ambiguous they must become when taking other positions, or defining terms. The “cause” must be defended at all cost.
To add, no doubt a very dangerous position to hold as there is no place for growth in Christ for the defense of the "cause" overshadows growth.


Word up!

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Moderator
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:30 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:53 am
Hill Top wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:58 pm
I guess he doesn't preach freedom from sin, as he writes our "thorough purging of sin" is in the future.
Frankly speaking, I was "thoroughly purged" of my past sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
No question that his beliefs are different than yours. It's different from most people's on this board, too.
I wish there was a “like” button. I have determined that someone is fully committed to their belief and is fully committed to defending it regardless of how ambiguous they must become when taking other positions, or defining terms. The “cause” must be defended at all cost.
I've been wishing for a "Like" button, too. And, a WYSIWYG editor...
There are several posts that I would've liked to "like."


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

Hill Top
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2128
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: Words mean something.

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:16 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:30 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:53 am
Hill Top wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:58 pm
I guess he doesn't preach freedom from sin, as he writes our "thorough purging of sin" is in the future.
Frankly speaking, I was "thoroughly purged" of my past sins at my baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
No question that his beliefs are different than yours. It's different from most people's on this board, too.
I wish there was a “like” button. I have determined that someone is fully committed to their belief and is fully committed to defending it regardless of how ambiguous they must become when taking other positions, or defining terms. The “cause” must be defended at all cost.
I've been wishing for a "Like" button, too. And, a WYSIWYG editor...
There are several posts that I would've liked to "like."
I would like it if the posts were numbered, so I could cite previous posts with more than "the third post of page 3".
Can changes be made to the format?



Post Reply