Dake Bible Discussion BoardWhat is "SIN"

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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Ironman wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:10 pm
Where in Scripture does God command pitchers must not throw dozens of "mistaken" balls every night?
I don't think there's an explicit command, but it is implicit in the definition of sin, missing the mark. Any ball thrown shy of perfection misses the mark of perfection. Furthermore, most pitchers aren't playing ball to glorify God. And, just as the plowing of the wicked is sin, so is the ball playing of the wicked.
Your post made me think of a number of things. How do we determine which person playing ball is wicked? Also, how to you determine if ball playing does not glorify God? Is it because of the nature of playing ball? Is it evil period?

Here is another question, does posting on this forum glorify God? Are we doing evil because we partake of posting on these discussion points? How are they glorifying God? We make many mistakes here.

I agree the plowing of the wicked is sin, but that is the wicked plowing and not the righteous plowing. Whatever the wicked does would likely be sin, because they are wicked. They follow satan and sin.

What if the righteous man makes a mistake and plows a crooked row? He may look at re-plowing the row, or he may look at it later after the crop is coming up and say to himself, how did I get that row so crooked? The crooked row does not make him evil.

Consider the mistake Paul made by not doing what the Spirit told him, yet, nothing indicates he was wicked because of it. The Spirit actually came to him later as needed.

I think we should pause and ponder the spirit and nature of sin in the wicked. Dake had interesting notes that he actually believed sin was a spirit. I don't recall the note at the moment, but certainly made it interesting study.


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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:54 pm
I think we should pause and ponder the spirit and nature of sin in the wicked. Dake had interesting notes that he actually believed sin was a spirit. I don't recall the note at the moment, but certainly made it interesting study.
The Bible uses various terms to describe missing the mark of God's standard. SIN, TREPASS, INIQUITY, WICKEDNESS are some of the more common ones used. The Bible also differentiates between things done in ignorance, by intention, and by accident. Jesus even speaks of "weightier portions" of the Law, indicating that some things rank differently than others.

I write this to point out that God sets the standard and anything that misses His standard is SIN. (period, end of discussion) How much it misses that standard and why it misses that standard is what separates the degree of trespass, iniquity, wicknessness, etc. For example if I walked past you and you accidentily tripped me, that would be wrong, but it was an accident, unintentional. Now, if you thought it would simply be "fun" to what me trip and fall, perhaps that would be call mischief. Again, if you planned to make me trip and fall, so I would not arrive at my destination on time, maybe that would iniquity. But if your plan to make me fall was so that I would injure myself and endanger my life, that might be wickedness.

All were sinful, but not all would rise to the degree of what we would call wicked.



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macca
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by macca »

luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:54 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Ironman wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:10 pm
Where in Scripture does God command pitchers must not throw dozens of "mistaken" balls every night?
I don't think there's an explicit command, but it is implicit in the definition of sin, missing the mark. Any ball thrown shy of perfection misses the mark of perfection. Furthermore, most pitchers aren't playing ball to glorify God. And, just as the plowing of the wicked is sin, so is the ball playing of the wicked.
Your post made me think of a number of things. How do we determine which person playing ball is wicked? Also, how to you determine if ball playing does not glorify God? Is it because of the nature of playing ball? Is it evil period?

Here is another question, does posting on this forum glorify God? Are we doing evil because we partake of posting on these discussion points? How are they glorifying God? We make many mistakes here.

I agree the plowing of the wicked is sin, but that is the wicked plowing and not the righteous plowing. Whatever the wicked does would likely be sin, because they are wicked. They follow satan and sin.

What if the righteous man makes a mistake and plows a crooked row? He may look at re-plowing the row, or he may look at it later after the crop is coming up and say to himself, how did I get that row so crooked? The crooked row does not make him evil.

Consider the mistake Paul made by not doing what the Spirit told him, yet, nothing indicates he was wicked because of it. The Spirit actually came to him later as needed.

I think we should pause and ponder the spirit and nature of sin in the wicked. Dake had interesting notes that he actually believed sin was a spirit. I don't recall the note at the moment, but certainly made it interesting study.




Hello Brother Luchina.....What mistake was it that Paul made ??????????



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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:13 pm
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:54 pm
I think we should pause and ponder the spirit and nature of sin in the wicked. Dake had interesting notes that he actually believed sin was a spirit. I don't recall the note at the moment, but certainly made it interesting study.
The Bible uses various terms to describe missing the mark of God's standard. SIN, TREPASS, INIQUITY, WICKEDNESS are some of the more common ones used. The Bible also differentiates between things done in ignorance, by intention, and by accident. Jesus even speaks of "weightier portions" of the Law, indicating that some things rank differently than others.

I write this to point out that God sets the standard and anything that misses His standard is SIN. (period, end of discussion) How much it misses that standard and why it misses that standard is what separates the degree of trespass, iniquity, wicknessness, etc. For example if I walked past you and you accidentily tripped me, that would be wrong, but it was an accident, unintentional. Now, if you thought it would simply be "fun" to what me trip and fall, perhaps that would be call mischief. Again, if you planned to make me trip and fall, so I would not arrive at my destination on time, maybe that would iniquity. But if your plan to make me fall was so that I would injure myself and endanger my life, that might be wickedness.

All were sinful, but not all would rise to the degree of what we would call wicked.
That might be so, however it poses a number of challenges. To me, Jesus set me free from sin and its dominion. I am dead to sin. I am alive to Christ, however He did not free me from mistakes, nor mistakes others make, because I cannot choose not to make a mistake or have an accident, no matter how much I plan to. I can choose not to follow satan and sin though. There is a night and day difference between the two.

If I follow your understanding I am doomed to eternal torments in darkness because I cannot be freed from fallibility as I have not the foreknowledge to forego such things, or I would forego them, since Jesus did not free me from being fallible. If my mind were fully renewed and full of foresight and foreknowledge, I would have known how to avoid mistakes.

One such example of being fallible is recently while working on a pressure washer, I skinned/mashed my finger. To me, a big mistake, but if I could have avoided it - believe me, I would have. More so the pain it has caused me I would have avoided.

The body responded with pain signals. It hurts a week later and I am aggravated that I made that mistake. Was it sin? Not at all. Nothing in my heart conceived of doing unrighteousness against God, nor not glorifying God, so I did not act on an evil temptation or a spirit of sin. To me doing what I was doing was glorifying God because I live each day as unto the Lord and whatever I do, I do it in that light.

Something else to throw into this discussion, how do you deal with children that make mistakes? Since they are not accountable, what do you call it when they trip up, scrape knees, skin fingers, fall, and so on? I got many bruises by making mistakes when I was young and did not know squat about sin, nor the devil for that matter.


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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Grandfather wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:31 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:48 pm
The good thing is that perfection does not negate fallibility, or what we may define as mistakes or errors. Fallibility is part of perfection.

Case in point, God created man and repented because of the evil man did. Jesus was temped in every way as a man. He could have prevented temptation, but did not. Man changed God's mind. There are many, many examples in God's word.

Man is not a machine, just as God is not a machine. Sin works by one's choice of whom he will serve as Paul indicated. God set the baseline for what is right.
Please explain what you mean by "Fallibility is part of perfection."
Luchnia,
I'd like to understand this, myself.

What do you mean by "Fallibility is part of perfection"?


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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

1 Timothy 1:13 New King James Version
... although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Something that I'd like to add to the thoughts we are exchanging concering "What is Sin?" is a thought concerning the above verse.

In that verse, Paul tells us that he obtained mercy for some things he did in ignorance. To me that is very interesting in light of the fact that many posts have been written concerning the idea that people are not responsible for mistakes or for things they do without evil intent.

I believe that Paul absolutely thought he was in the right when he did those things. Yet, that didn't change the fact that they were wrong and he was sinful for doing them. Thus, he needed mercy for doing them, even though he had no evil intent and thought he was doing the right thing.

Ignorance doesn't excuse wrong doing. But, ignorance can be a factor in whether mercy might be extended for such wrong doing.


Genesis 6:8 New King James Version
... Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Have you found grace in the eyes of the Lord?
Are You a Good Person?
Save Yourself Some Pain
Hell's Best Kept Secret
True & False Conversion
School of Biblical Evangelism

Grandfather
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Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:51 pm

Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:41 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:13 pm
All were sinful, but not all would rise to the degree of what we would call wicked.
That might be so, however it poses a number of challenges. To me, Jesus set me free from sin and its dominion. I am dead to sin. I am alive to Christ, however He did not free me from mistakes, nor mistakes others make, because I cannot choose not to make a mistake or have an accident, no matter how much I plan to. I can choose not to follow satan and sin though. There is a night and day difference between the two.
Yes, I will acknowledge that it poses great challenges. I also agree that Jesus sets us free from sin and its dominion. I agree you, we, can choose who we follow. But I question your statement that you cannot choose not to make a mistake. Why is that true? Is it because you are human, tainted by sin, living in a fallen world? Or is it because you have yet to attain perfect knowledge?
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:41 pm
If I follow your understanding I am doomed to eternal torments in darkness because I cannot be freed from fallibility as I have not the foreknowledge to forego such things, or I would forego them, since Jesus did not free me from being fallible. If my mind were fully renewed and full of foresight and foreknowledge, I would have known how to avoid mistakes.
Why are you doomed? Is your security based on your performance or His? Do you truly understand His Grace and love? You stated above that you are free from sin and its dominion did you not? You acknowledge that your mind is not fully renewed and full of foresight and foreknowledge. Is there a possibility when your mind is fully renewed that you will recognize that mistakes are sin?
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:41 pm
One such example of being fallible is recently while working on a pressure washer, I skinned/mashed my finger. To me, a big mistake, but if I could have avoided it - believe me, I would have. More so the pain it has caused me I would have avoided.
Who is saying you couldn't have avoided it? Would you allow Adam to make that same excuse about the fall? I doubt it, but why? You see you are setting the standard by which your measure the difference between what you accept as simply a mistake and God's.
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:41 pm
The body responded with pain signals. It hurts a week later and I am aggravated that I made that mistake. Was it sin? Not at all. Nothing in my heart conceived of doing unrighteousness against God, nor not glorifying God, so I did not act on an evil temptation or a spirit of sin. To me doing what I was doing was glorifying God because I live each day as unto the Lord and whatever I do, I do it in that light.
Ah, we may be getting somewhere. I haven't said that these "sins" of unintentional mistakes remove us from God's saving grace, so please do not attribute that to me.
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:41 pm
Something else to throw into this discussion, how do you deal with children that make mistakes? Since they are not accountable, what do you call it when they trip up, scrape knees, skin fingers, fall, and so on? I got many bruises by making mistakes when I was young and did not know squat about sin, nor the devil for that matter.
Oh, if God doesn't hold children for this "sins of mistakes" why do you assume he holds you accountable for them?



Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:10 pm
1 Timothy 1:13 New King James Version
... although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Something that I'd like to add to the thoughts we are exchanging concering "What is Sin?" is a thought concerning the above verse.

In that verse, Paul tells us that he obtained mercy for some things he did in ignorance. To me that is very interesting in light of the fact that many posts have been written concerning the idea that people are not responsible for mistakes or for things they do without evil intent.

I believe that Paul absolutely thought he was in the right when he did those things. Yet, that didn't change the fact that they were wrong and he was sinful for doing them. Thus, he needed mercy for doing them, even though he had no evil intent and thought he was doing the right thing.

Ignorance doesn't excuse wrong doing. But, ignorance can be a factor in whether mercy might be extended for such wrong doing.
Ah, yes... I think you're on to something.



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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

macca wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:20 pm
luchnia wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:54 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Ironman wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:10 pm
Where in Scripture does God command pitchers must not throw dozens of "mistaken" balls every night?
I don't think there's an explicit command, but it is implicit in the definition of sin, missing the mark. Any ball thrown shy of perfection misses the mark of perfection. Furthermore, most pitchers aren't playing ball to glorify God. And, just as the plowing of the wicked is sin, so is the ball playing of the wicked.
Your post made me think of a number of things. How do we determine which person playing ball is wicked? Also, how to you determine if ball playing does not glorify God? Is it because of the nature of playing ball? Is it evil period?

Here is another question, does posting on this forum glorify God? Are we doing evil because we partake of posting on these discussion points? How are they glorifying God? We make many mistakes here.

I agree the plowing of the wicked is sin, but that is the wicked plowing and not the righteous plowing. Whatever the wicked does would likely be sin, because they are wicked. They follow satan and sin.

What if the righteous man makes a mistake and plows a crooked row? He may look at re-plowing the row, or he may look at it later after the crop is coming up and say to himself, how did I get that row so crooked? The crooked row does not make him evil.

Consider the mistake Paul made by not doing what the Spirit told him, yet, nothing indicates he was wicked because of it. The Spirit actually came to him later as needed.

I think we should pause and ponder the spirit and nature of sin in the wicked. Dake had interesting notes that he actually believed sin was a spirit. I don't recall the note at the moment, but certainly made it interesting study.




Hello Brother Luchina.....What mistake was it that Paul made ??????????
I think it is in Acts 21, but not exactly sure. He went where he was told not to go. I would call it disobedience to the Spirit maybe, but some of the later events could be considered mistakes because of his choice. The interesting thing was the Holy Spirit later joined him.

I would not so much call it a mistake so much a choice to do something you were told not to do, but I am sure some would see it differently and would clearly say it was a mistake for Paul to go there. The consequences of that action resulted in a series of events which I suppose those could be considered as mistakes.

As in my examples of mistakes, I am not aware they will happen until they do. I simply cannot buy into a mistakenly stubbed toe or a scraped finger, as a sin, but to each his own.


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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:56 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:31 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:48 pm
The good thing is that perfection does not negate fallibility, or what we may define as mistakes or errors. Fallibility is part of perfection.

Case in point, God created man and repented because of the evil man did. Jesus was temped in every way as a man. He could have prevented temptation, but did not. Man changed God's mind. There are many, many examples in God's word.

Man is not a machine, just as God is not a machine. Sin works by one's choice of whom he will serve as Paul indicated. God set the baseline for what is right.
Please explain what you mean by "Fallibility is part of perfection."
Luchnia,
I'd like to understand this, myself.

What do you mean by "Fallibility is part of perfection"?
Fallibility are mistakes and errors as the word is defined in our day and time. Throughout the bible we find many times this had nothing to do with sin. Was Jesus fallible? I would say yes, because He grew from a baby to a man. He even had to grow in favor with God and man. Did He ever stumble? Did He ever stub His toe? Did He ever scrape His knee? Being human and fallible should teach us much about this journey.

To say Jesus did not make mistakes would be a rather bold assumption and would be assuming He was not human as a baby, young child, or young man. Was it a mistake when he ran off and his parents could not find Him? He had his directive, yet He could have told his parents. He grew to maturity as the scripture says. Consider that He was fallible and yet without sin. He chose not to sin - just as we are fallible and can chose not to sin.


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