Dake Bible Discussion BoardWhat is "SIN"

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Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Who here meets this standard? Does He make mistakes? Then why do you make allowances for yours?



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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

I have found our different thoughts about this most interesting. I am often reminded of the scripture to the pure all things are pure and wondered what the context of that scripture means. What is purity and how is it handled with the saint. I think Romans chapter 14 sheds light on this subject we are currently discussing.

I would suggest reading the entire chapter to understand what the author is implying and to get a concept of what purity means in this conttext. Here are some verses that deal with meat and drink and the weaker brother which we could just as easily be discussing. When dealing with what is pure this should bring some more thoughts to mind:
Romans 14:14-20 (KJV)
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

I suppose a question might be asked. Can one watch a baseball game in purity with the love of God and joy in the Holy Spirit in their heart? If you stub your toe are you still pure with God's love, or has your heart become darkened with evil?


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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:24 am
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Who here meets this standard? Does He make mistakes? Then why do you make allowances for yours?
I would ask some simple questions here. Does He say, "You are perfect" or does He say "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"? What does it mean to "be ye perfect"? Does that mean you can make choices that you regret and change your mind about them and still be ye perfect?

If you were sorry you made a decision and did something, would that be a sin? From your posts about this subject, it appears to you it would. To God it is not the case. God regretted and was sorry of certain choices He made and made choices that He later changed His mind about. The outcomes were much worse than the mistake of a toe stub.

If I were to give scriptures that indicated that there were mistakes made and God made them, you would quickly state that is an impossibility, yet there are some recorded text that would indicate He did at least by your definition of a mistake.

I see the concept of sin much differently because my focus is on the purpose of what He does and not so much on the choices that start to produce unwanted outcomes that He did. In the long term He continues on a purpose driven path of righteousness and we should do the same.

We know He did not sin and is perfect, so how could He do something He regretted and later changed it?


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Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:44 am
We know He did not sin and is perfect, so how could He do something He regretted and later changed it?
This is a great question. I hold that God said this for our benefit, not his. That he was expressing the pain felt when his creation used the freedom he had given them to rebel against their creator.

He created man in His image, He gave man the freedom to choose, because love must be free to make a choice. To force someone to love is rape. So it pained God's heart that His creation turned against Him. His "regret" has to be at a different level than what we can/could comphrend. A human regret would have wiped the slate clean and started over again.

But back to the subject of sin. I am surprized by the relativism that has creeped into our understanding of sin. We've made sin into some gross or hideous action, something that is agreed upon by consensus. But sin is simply missing the mark, the standard that God set. This discussion shows that some think hitting the target, not the center of the bullseye, is acceptable. I agree it is a lot closer than not hitting the target at all, but it is still missing the mark.

God calls us to be as He is. We have settle for Ivory Soap purity 99.44% pure. Indeed that is better than 99.44% of all other people, but if God's standard is 100% then it still misses the mark. We are satisfied with passing grades, maybe being the most pure person we know. Indeed we may have less sin than anyone in the world, but are we perfect, whole, complete, wanting for nothing? Not if we make mistakes.

So, go ahead and rationalize your mistakes, justify your errors, excuse your misjudgement, forgive your poor performance, allow yourself some "wiggle room". But know this, anything short of what God is, is still imperfection. It is still missing the mark, even though it may be closer to the mark than any other attempt made by man. It is missed even by the slightest amount. Therefor is is "sin" - a missing of the mark that God set. OH>>>>>> perhaps he set a lower standard for you! Show that to me.



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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Hill Top »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:24 am
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Who here meets this standard? Does He make mistakes? Then why do you make allowances for yours?
How many times did God repent of an intention to destroy the Israelites?
I hesitate to call them "mistakes", as they proved to illustrates the grace, long suffering, and forgiveness of God.
Traits we should also carry with our new, divine nature.
It also showed He was willing to change His mind about things.



Hill Top
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Hill Top »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:40 am
luchnia wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:44 am
We know He did not sin and is perfect, so how could He do something He regretted and later changed it?
This is a great question. I hold that God said this for our benefit, not his. That he was expressing the pain felt when his creation used the freedom he had given them to rebel against their creator.

He created man in His image, He gave man the freedom to choose, because love must be free to make a choice. To force someone to love is rape. So it pained God's heart that His creation turned against Him. His "regret" has to be at a different level than what we can/could comphrend. A human regret would have wiped the slate clean and started over again.

But back to the subject of sin. I am surprized by the relativism that has creeped into our understanding of sin. We've made sin into some gross or hideous action, something that is agreed upon by consensus. But sin is simply missing the mark, the standard that God set. This discussion shows that some think hitting the target, not the center of the bullseye, is acceptable. I agree it is a lot closer than not hitting the target at all, but it is still missing the mark.

God calls us to be as He is. We have settle for Ivory Soap purity 99.44% pure. Indeed that is better than 99.44% of all other people, but if God's standard is 100% then it still misses the mark. We are satisfied with passing grades, maybe being the most pure person we know. Indeed we may have less sin than anyone in the world, but are we perfect, whole, complete, wanting for nothing? Not if we make mistakes.

So, go ahead and rationalize your mistakes, justify your errors, excuse your misjudgement, forgive your poor performance, allow yourself some "wiggle room". But know this, anything short of what God is, is still imperfection. It is still missing the mark, even though it may be closer to the mark than any other attempt made by man. It is missed even by the slightest amount. Therefor is is "sin" - a missing of the mark that God set. OH>>>>>> perhaps he set a lower standard for you! Show that to me.
The relativism is a valid point.
If stubbing ones toe is a sin, what is that relative to...I mean, by what law or rule will we be judged for such an unintentional occurrence?
Frankly, I live by the Law of Christ, which is...Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Forgetting one's keys, stubbing a toe, or posting incomplete data is not "illegal".
If anyone wants to feel condemned for these actions...it is on them.
They have created their own Law.



Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:39 pm
The relativism is a valid point.
If stubbing ones toe is a sin, what is that relative to...I mean, by what law or rule will we be judged for such an unintentional occurrence?
Frankly, I live by the Law of Christ, which is...Love God above all else and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Forgetting one's keys, stubbing a toe, or posting incomplete data is not "illegal".
If anyone wants to feel condemned for these actions...it is on them.
They have created their own Law.
What law or rule will we be judged is a great question. I see you haven't answered it though.
Also you are confusing two different issues. The first is what is "sin" and the second is the penalty of that "sin!"

Let us use your unintentional occurrence as an example:

Take person "A" that does some work, research, experiments, etc and but arrives at a wrong conclusion. That person even acts on their research and there appears to be no dire consequences. An honest, unintentional mistake, no harm no foul right?

Person "A" again acts on that same research, this time 1000 people die. It is the same mistake, but the consequences are different. Why is he held accountable the second time and not the first? God holds us accountable for both the mistake and the consciquences.

You and others here are judging something as sin or not sin, only by the severity of the consequences not the fact that the action missed the mark.

You asked about what is it (sin) relative to. The standard is that which is set by God and his nature. He calls for us to be perfect. He calls for all things to be done in faith. He calls for his followers to do good everywhere and everytime they see to do it. This is a very high, exacting, and demanding standard.

On the other hand many on this forum are determining what is sin, not by God's standard of perfect holiness, perfect obedience to all the things He has commanded. Instead they are determining what is sin by the moving standard of how one action compares to another. By comparing the consciquences and intentions.

Again sin is not determine by how close or how far away from the mark you are. It is determine if you hit the exact mark that God sets, not one-onehundreth of a millimeter off.

So, determine what sin is first, realise the magnitude of it, the depth of it, the deceitfulness of it regardless of what consciquences it may or may not bear. Sin is still sin even if we cannot determine there are any harmful reactions to it.



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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:40 am
luchnia wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:44 am
We know He did not sin and is perfect, so how could He do something He regretted and later changed it?
This is a great question. I hold that God said this for our benefit, not his. That he was expressing the pain felt when his creation used the freedom he had given them to rebel against their creator.
Whether He said it for our benefit, or not, does not change the fact that He did it and repented of it as it is written.


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luchnia
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by luchnia »

Why not allow God's word to determine what sin is? Sin is well described in God's word and much is written of sin's master, so we need not be ignorant of sin and the devices of evil.


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Grandfather
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Re: What is "SIN"

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:10 pm
Why not allow God's word to determine what sin is? Sin is well described in God's word and much is written of sin's master, so we need not be ignorant of sin and the devices of evil.
I believe this is what I have done.
God's Word says we are to be perfect as He is perfect.
God's Word says disobedience is Sin. (Hence not being perfect as he is perfect is sin.)
God's Word says whatever is not of faith is Sin.
God's Word says that to him that knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

I could go on.
To claim anything less the perfection is okay is sinful. It is at the root of deception and ignorance.



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