Dake Bible Discussion BoardBaptismal Regeneration?

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Over the last several months to few years, we have been discussing topics that touch upon when a person is born again as it relates to water baptism.

In doing some somewhat lazy internet searches over the past day or two, I came across the claim, more than once, that the early church believed in baptismal regeneration. If that is true, then the authors of New Testament scripture and their first readers would have had that that in mind when reading the writings of the New Testament and trying to read the New Testament from the perspective that baptismal regeneration is not true would be reading it with via a paradigm which neither the authors nor their first audience would have had.

My question is, is it possible to prove that the early church did not hold to baptismal regeneration?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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branham1965
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by branham1965 »

Excellent point Roger!!!

Our point of view completely shapes our understanding of the Bible.

The Early Church Fathers believed in the necessity of water baptism for salvation. :|


The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matthew 28:18-20,Mark 16:15-16.

"And Peter said unto them ,Repent ye,and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins;and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
American Standard Version

1. Rise To Newness Of Life:Christian Water Baptism Ritual Or Reality? by James Lee Beall.
2.Laying The Foundation :Achieving Christian Maturity
by James Lee Beall.
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:29 pm
Over the last several months to few years, we have been discussing topics that touch upon when a person is born again as it relates to water baptism.

In doing some somewhat lazy internet searches over the past day or two, I came across the claim, more than once, that the early church believed in baptismal regeneration. If that is true, then the authors of New Testament scripture and their first readers would have had that that in mind when reading the writings of the New Testament and trying to read the New Testament from the perspective that baptismal regeneration is not true would be reading it with via a paradigm which neither the authors nor their first audience would have had.

My question is, is it possible to prove that the early church did not hold to baptismal regeneration?



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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:29 pm
Over the last several months to few years, we have been discussing topics that touch upon when a person is born again as it relates to water baptism.

In doing some somewhat lazy internet searches over the past day or two, I came across the claim, more than once, that the early church believed in baptismal regeneration. If that is true, then the authors of New Testament scripture and their first readers would have had that that in mind when reading the writings of the New Testament and trying to read the New Testament from the perspective that baptismal regeneration is not true would be reading it with via a paradigm which neither the authors nor their first audience would have had.

My question is, is it possible to prove that the early church did not hold to baptismal regeneration?
It is kinda difficult to prove a negative.
I don't think the disbelief can be proven for them or for today's church.



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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

How about this?

Is there evidence that at least some in the early church believed in salvation without water baptism or separate from water baptism?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Hill Top
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:11 pm
How about this?

Is there evidence that at least some in the early church believed in salvation without water baptism or separate from water baptism?
If there were any proof, it isn't in the bible.
Salvation without water baptism would deny Jesus' commandment in multiple places. (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16)
And Peter's. (Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48)
And Ananias'. (Acts 22:16)
And Philip's. (Acts 8:36-38)
And Paul's. (Acts 19:4-5)



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luchnia
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by luchnia »

It is vital to define baptismal regeneration as there are a number of baptismal items mentioned in scripture and the word baptism is often confused to always include water in places where it does not.

Using water for immersion among other outward things are relevant in the Christian faith, yet are not a requirement for salvation and just as relevant water immersion is not taught as being required to be saved. If it were, then many are simply lost and never had hope.

As we see in Romans the simple guarantee of salvation is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved. A man believes with his heart and confesses with his mouth unto his salvation.

Just being aware of the many types of immersions taught in scripture and the agents that do the immersions throughout scripture is a fascinating subject. Dake landed on some key components of the seven baptisms and the three baptisms for the Christian.

The symbolism of being immersed in water and coming up out of the water is very important aspect of the Christian faith as we see many examples of it, yet it will never be as important as the immersion into Christ from the born again experience of salvation.

Jesus never immersed anyone in water for their salvation and He met many a sinner and told them how to be free. If water immersion was a requirement for salvation, Jesus would have done it to the first sinner He met along the way because He came to save that which was lost and our Savior did not fail His mission.

Those that teach that water is required for salvation have doomed many New Testament saints that were not water baptized to hell by their belief.


Word up!

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branham1965
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by branham1965 »

Matt 3 :1 ff "In those days came John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness of Judea And saying repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." verse 6 " And were baptized of him in Jordan confessing their sins."


Matt.21:25,Mark 11:30,Luke 20:4
"The baptism of John ,whence was it? from heaven or from men?"
" The baptism of John ,was it from heaven or of men? answer me"
"The baptism of John,was it from heaven or from men?


"And all the people that heard him and the publicans justified God being baptized with the baptism of John.But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES NOT BEING BAPTIZED OF HIM." Luke 7:29-30.

The Bible says Jesus' disciples also baptized.
" WHEN therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that JESUS HAD MADE AND BAPTIZED MORE DISCIPLES than John
(Though Jesus himself baptized not,but his disciples,)He left Judea and departed again into Galilee." John 4:1-3.


Water Baptism is a direct commandment of Jesus Christ for all believers. +scuba

luchnia wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 5:45 am
It is vital to define baptismal regeneration as there are a number of baptismal items mentioned in scripture and the word baptism is often confused to always include water in places where it does not.

Using water for immersion among other outward things are relevant in the Christian faith, yet are not a requirement for salvation and just as relevant water immersion is not taught as being required to be saved. If it were, then many are simply lost and never had hope.

As we see in Romans the simple guarantee of salvation is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved. A man believes with his heart and confesses with his mouth unto his salvation.

Just being aware of the many types of immersions taught in scripture and the agents that do the immersions throughout scripture is a fascinating subject. Dake landed on some key components of the seven baptisms and the three baptisms for the Christian.

The symbolism of being immersed in water and coming up out of the water is very important aspect of the Christian faith as we see many examples of it, yet it will never be as important as the immersion into Christ from the born again experience of salvation.

Jesus never immersed anyone in water for their salvation and He met many a sinner and told them how to be free. If water immersion was a requirement for salvation, Jesus would have done it to the first sinner He met along the way because He came to save that which was lost and our Savior did not fail His mission.

Those that teach that water is required for salvation have doomed many New Testament saints that were not water baptized to hell by their belief.



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luchnia
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by luchnia »

branham1965 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:18 am

Water Baptism is a direct commandment of Jesus Christ for all believers. +scuba
Two questions for you:
1. Is water immersion required for salvation?
2. What happened to the people in the New Testament that were not able to get water baptized as per the "direct commandment of Jesus" as you put it?


Word up!

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branham1965
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by branham1965 »

We have discussed this before.If you recall.

luchnia wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:09 am
branham1965 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:18 am

Water Baptism is a direct commandment of Jesus Christ for all believers. +scuba
Two questions for you:
1. Is water immersion required for salvation?
2. What happened to the people in the New Testament that were not able to get water baptized as per the "direct commandment of Jesus" as you put it?



Hill Top
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Re: Baptismal Regeneration?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:09 am
branham1965 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:18 am

Water Baptism is a direct commandment of Jesus Christ for all believers. +scuba
Two questions for you:
1. Is water immersion required for salvation?
It is required for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
Can a man be saved without the atonement Jesus died to provide?
It is also required to satisfy Rom 6:5..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
No "planting"---no resurrection.
2. What happened to the people in the New Testament that were not able to get water baptized as per the "direct commandment of Jesus" as you put it?
Got an example of one man?
God provided water for the Ethiopian eunuch, didn't He?
You seem to lack trust that God can do anything.



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