Dake Bible Discussion BoardTwo things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

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luchnia
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Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by luchnia »

Dake elaborated and was very detailed his writings about these two things (I summarized the concepts):
1. That saints can fall away and sin and serve satan - some saints even fell away to the point of apostasy that there is no forgiveness granted no matter how much repentance.
2. That one committing sin is not a child of God.

With these two thoughts, what is it that makes men claim they are in sin and sinning and how has satan deceived them into thinking that way? Dake maintained that the saint was not in sin, nor sinning, and was holy. He recorded numerous scriptures to support his belief.

This has been brought up before, but it is amazing how many claim to believe as Dake did, yet disagree with him about this issue.

Here is what Dake had to state about people outside of Christ (those in sin). "The present state of every man outside of Christ is that of being depraved, polluted and corrupt in all his nature."

Here is something else that Dake stated, "I am fully aware that literally thousands of religious teachers are constantly saying that no man can live free from sin, that we are in sin every day, and that there is no man that does not sin every day he lives. One can see that this teaching is entirely out of harmony with the Bible... If these men sin every day, then they are sinners every day and there is no time that they are not sinners."

Dake also states, "Christ means nothing to them if they are sinners and if they cannot be saved from sin."

This begs the question, what does Christ mean to you if you are in sin?


Word up!

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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Luchnia?

Do you recognize that there are non-death penalty sins, as Dake did?

Do you also recognize that there is sinless carnality, as Dake did?

Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

Do you also recognize that by death penalty sins, that Dake is not necessarily speaking of sins that are unto physical death, but he is primarily speaking of sins that carry the spiritual death penalty that can result in eternal death?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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luchnia
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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:23 am
Luchnia?

Do you recognize that there are non-death penalty sins, as Dake did?

Do you also recognize that there is sinless carnality, as Dake did?

Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

Do you also recognize that by death penalty sins, that Dake is not necessarily speaking of sins that are unto physical death, but he is primarily speaking of sins that carry the spiritual death penalty that can result in eternal death?
Yes to all, yet whether I agree fully across the board is another matter.
The statement you make - Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

When Dake goes into the new birth where does he differentiate between the two? In BTU, chapter 8 he holds to the new birth and holiness and freedom from sin in every aspect. The study seems deeper in GPFM. Interesting that Dake maintained that sin was more than a mere transgression of the law, but a real and spirit of sin which was the nature and spirit of the devil which works in every sinner.

Dake also maintained that it was impossible for any man to really experience salvation from sin and not know it. Some on this forum simply do not acknowledge salvation from sin, but that they are sinning every day. They claim Jesus save them, but they don't quit sinning. Dake states in BTU, "If anyone is in doubt whether he has ever been saved or not, it is clear that he is not saved."

Makes you wonder if men should truly acknowledge they are saved from sin. Maybe they need to seek what is missing in the life of salvation in Christ. Dake states concerning this, "Men must repent and quit the sin business. They must seek God until they are new creatures or they are not saved."


Word up!

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dolph
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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by dolph »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:23 am
Luchnia?

Do you recognize that there are non-death penalty sins, as Dake did?

Do you also recognize that there is sinless carnality, as Dake did?

Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

Do you also recognize that by death penalty sins, that Dake is not necessarily speaking of sins that are unto physical death, but he is primarily speaking of sins that carry the spiritual death penalty that can result in eternal death?
SBD, did Dake leave us a list of non death penalty sins? I have never heard of this concept but one can imagine a whole list of sins of omission. "I should've done this or said this."



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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by branham1965 »

+backStaber

I will NEVER in my life cease to be amazed at people.Especially Christian people.
Any of us can point fingers at other people Romans 14:4

Answering Bible Questions by Finis Dake on youtube 48:00 minutes long. :angel: :angel:

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:13 am
Dake elaborated and was very detailed his writings about these two things (I summarized the concepts):
1. That saints can fall away and sin and serve satan - some saints even fell away to the point of apostasy that there is no forgiveness granted no matter how much repentance.
2. That one committing sin is not a child of God.

With these two thoughts, what is it that makes men claim they are in sin and sinning and how has satan deceived them into thinking that way? Dake maintained that the saint was not in sin, nor sinning, and was holy. He recorded numerous scriptures to support his belief.

This has been brought up before, but it is amazing how many claim to believe as Dake did, yet disagree with him about this issue.

Here is what Dake had to state about people outside of Christ (those in sin). "The present state of every man outside of Christ is that of being depraved, polluted and corrupt in all his nature."

Here is something else that Dake stated, "I am fully aware that literally thousands of religious teachers are constantly saying that no man can live free from sin, that we are in sin every day, and that there is no man that does not sin every day he lives. One can see that this teaching is entirely out of harmony with the Bible... If these men sin every day, then they are sinners every day and there is no time that they are not sinners."

Dake also states, "Christ means nothing to them if they are sinners and if they cannot be saved from sin."

This begs the question, what does Christ mean to you if you are in sin?
Last edited by branham1965 on Mon May 11, 2020 1:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

dolph wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:02 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:23 am
Luchnia?

Do you recognize that there are non-death penalty sins, as Dake did?

Do you also recognize that there is sinless carnality, as Dake did?

Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

Do you also recognize that by death penalty sins, that Dake is not necessarily speaking of sins that are unto physical death, but he is primarily speaking of sins that carry the spiritual death penalty that can result in eternal death?
SBD, did Dake leave us a list of non death penalty sins? I have never heard of this concept but one can imagine a whole list of sins of omission. "I should've done this or said this."
He did, but I wouldn't say that the list was meant to be exhaustive. More like guidelines.

Do you have a Dake Bible? God's Plan For Man? Both? Neither?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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luchnia
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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by luchnia »

branham1965 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:11 pm
+backStaber

I will NEVER in my life cease to be amazed at people.Especially Christian people.
Any of us can point fingers at other people Romans 14:4

Answering Bible Questions by Finis Dake on youtube 48:00 minutes long. :angel: :angel:

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:13 am
Dake elaborated and was very detailed his writings about these two things (I summarized the concepts):
1. That saints can fall away and sin and serve satan - some saints even fell away to the point of apostasy that there is no forgiveness granted no matter how much repentance.
2. That one committing sin is not a child of God.

With these two thoughts, what is it that makes men claim they are in sin and sinning and how has satan deceived them into thinking that way? Dake maintained that the saint was not in sin, nor sinning, and was holy. He recorded numerous scriptures to support his belief.

This has been brought up before, but it is amazing how many claim to believe as Dake did, yet disagree with him about this issue.

Here is what Dake had to state about people outside of Christ (those in sin). "The present state of every man outside of Christ is that of being depraved, polluted and corrupt in all his nature."

Here is something else that Dake stated, "I am fully aware that literally thousands of religious teachers are constantly saying that no man can live free from sin, that we are in sin every day, and that there is no man that does not sin every day he lives. One can see that this teaching is entirely out of harmony with the Bible... If these men sin every day, then they are sinners every day and there is no time that they are not sinners."

Dake also states, "Christ means nothing to them if they are sinners and if they cannot be saved from sin."

This begs the question, what does Christ mean to you if you are in sin?
I don't really understand your response. I think the questions I posed are relevant and important to this discussion.

I am not pointing fingers at Dake, other than just stating his position on this subject as it comes up often in this forum and few agree with him on it.

Since you don't agree with Dake on this subject, please share your beliefs about it for discussion and post scripture references to support your view.

In my opinion, Dake was pretty much spot on in his view on this subject and I mostly agree with him.


Word up!

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branham1965
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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by branham1965 »

luchnia,
I thought you were getting on me.If not then i really misunderstood you.


luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:36 pm
branham1965 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:11 pm
+backStaber

I will NEVER in my life cease to be amazed at people.Especially Christian people.
Any of us can point fingers at other people Romans 14:4

Answering Bible Questions by Finis Dake on youtube 48:00 minutes long. :angel: :angel:

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:13 am
Dake elaborated and was very detailed his writings about these two things (I summarized the concepts):
1. That saints can fall away and sin and serve satan - some saints even fell away to the point of apostasy that there is no forgiveness granted no matter how much repentance.
2. That one committing sin is not a child of God.

With these two thoughts, what is it that makes men claim they are in sin and sinning and how has satan deceived them into thinking that way? Dake maintained that the saint was not in sin, nor sinning, and was holy. He recorded numerous scriptures to support his belief.

This has been brought up before, but it is amazing how many claim to believe as Dake did, yet disagree with him about this issue.

Here is what Dake had to state about people outside of Christ (those in sin). "The present state of every man outside of Christ is that of being depraved, polluted and corrupt in all his nature."

Here is something else that Dake stated, "I am fully aware that literally thousands of religious teachers are constantly saying that no man can live free from sin, that we are in sin every day, and that there is no man that does not sin every day he lives. One can see that this teaching is entirely out of harmony with the Bible... If these men sin every day, then they are sinners every day and there is no time that they are not sinners."

Dake also states, "Christ means nothing to them if they are sinners and if they cannot be saved from sin."

This begs the question, what does Christ mean to you if you are in sin?
I don't really understand your response. I think the questions I posed are relevant and important to this discussion.

I am not pointing fingers at Dake, other than just stating his position on this subject as it comes up often in this forum and few agree with him on it.

Since you don't agree with Dake on this subject, please share your beliefs about it for discussion and post scripture references to support your view.

In my opinion, Dake was pretty much spot on in his view on this subject and I mostly agree with him.



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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 12:54 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:23 am
Luchnia?

Do you recognize that there are non-death penalty sins, as Dake did?

Do you also recognize that there is sinless carnality, as Dake did?

Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

Do you also recognize that by death penalty sins, that Dake is not necessarily speaking of sins that are unto physical death, but he is primarily speaking of sins that carry the spiritual death penalty that can result in eternal death?
Yes to all, yet whether I agree fully across the board is another matter.
The statement you make - Do you recognize that when Dake speaks of living free from sin that he is speaking of living free from death penalty sins? Not necessarily non-death penalty sins?

When Dake goes into the new birth where does he differentiate between the two? In BTU, chapter 8 he holds to the new birth and holiness and freedom from sin in every aspect. The study seems deeper in GPFM. Interesting that Dake maintained that sin was more than a mere transgression of the law, but a real and spirit of sin which was the nature and spirit of the devil which works in every sinner.

Dake also maintained that it was impossible for any man to really experience salvation from sin and not know it. Some on this forum simply do not acknowledge salvation from sin, but that they are sinning every day. They claim Jesus save them, but they don't quit sinning. Dake states in BTU, "If anyone is in doubt whether he has ever been saved or not, it is clear that he is not saved."

Makes you wonder if men should truly acknowledge they are saved from sin. Maybe they need to seek what is missing in the life of salvation in Christ. Dake states concerning this, "Men must repent and quit the sin business. They must seek God until they are new creatures or they are not saved."
When Dake goes into the new birth, I don't think he needs to differentiate between the two. The fact that he does, elsewhere confirms that any understanding of what he has to say about sin concerning the new birth should be read in light of what he says about the types of sins. Otherwise, Dake will be misunderstood.

Understanding that according to Dake, all sinners are more or less possessed is a key point in understanding how the idea of the types of sin plays into this. Now, we know that Dake didn't believe that a believer could be possessed, but we also know that the term possessed can be hyperbole for demonic oppression. Thus, the non-death penalty sins can be taken as evidence that the believer in question is under attack.

In some of the sections where Dake discusses sickness and the believer, he does mention the possibility of sin being connected to sickness. Here's one:
In Bible Truths Unmased, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler
Note that Dake calls this individual a child of God, in spite of their sin giving demons occassion to attack.

This is not to say that if such sin were not repented of that it would not ultimately lead to Hell, in Dake's view. But, there are some sins that are not so serious as to demand immediate damnation. Rather, instead, the turning over to demonic powers in hopes that they might repent.

There is another interesting note on 1st Corinthians 3:15 in Dake's Reference Bible.
In Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler
There are a lot of serious sins on the list in this illustration. Yet, this person is being judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ and, according to Dake's view, is in no danger of going to eternal Hell. The 93 parts designated as wood, hay, and stubble are a good starting point for understanding Dake's view of the non-death penalty sins.

Certainly, Dake taught that men must quit the sin business.

In my next reply to Dolph, I'll try and list some of the death penalty sins. But, keep in mind that this illustration from 1st Cor. 3:15 shows that, in Dake's view, there are some sins in the lives of believers that they may fail to eradicate and yet make it to the Judgment Seat of Christ. I think the difference lies in the intent of the believer in question concerning these things. But, that's my opinion.


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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Re: Two things that scripture teaches concerning sin and the saint:

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

dolph wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:02 pm
SBD, did Dake leave us a list of non death penalty sins? I have never heard of this concept but one can imagine a whole list of sins of omission. "I should've done this or said this."

Continuing my reply from earlier...


He did, but I wouldn't say that the list was meant to be exhaustive. More like guidelines.

Do you have a Dake Bible? God's Plan For Man? Both? Neither?

There is a list in more than one of Dake's works called Forty-Two Death Penalty Sins.
In his notes on Genesis 9:6, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler
If you'll compare this list to the list of wood, hay, and stubble given in Dake's notes on 1st Cor. 3:15 (see my post to Luchnia, if you don't have it available), I think you'll start to see the difference between the death penalty sins and the non-death penalty sins.

There is one death penalty sin that Dake lists as being so serious that there's no point in praying about it: Blasphemy Against the Holy Ghost. As it will not be forgiven, in Dake's view, it is a sin that permanently and irrevocably damns the soul. Dake takes it to be the sin unto death mentioned in 1st John 5:16.

Speaking of 1st John 5:16, I find it interesting that one of the distinctions between the sins unto death and the sins not unto death is that those that are not unto death can be prayed for by a believing observer and the sinner in question will receive life (mercy?). There are examples of sinners that I can think of in the Old Testament where God says basically that no matter who prays for theses people, He will not hear. There are other times when He says not to pray for certain individuals. And, there is at least one time where he asks an intercessor to leave Him alone concerning some people so that He may destroy them. To me, this shows degrees of sin based on the knowledge and intent of the sinner(s).

This is a vast subject, but the safest route is to quit the sin business. After all, we don't want to be in the place where God is either telling those that intercede on your behalf to leave Him alone concerning you. Or, worse yet, that He will not hear intercessions concerning you.


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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