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Hill Top
Blessings are Upon the Head of the Just
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by Hill Top »

dolph wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 12:39 pm
luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:04 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
Hill Top doesn't believe that he has sinned in over 14 years. He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again. He believes that being born again occurs at the moment of genuine water baptism.

Have you sinned since your water baptism?

If so...

By Hill Top's standards,
you aren't saved
and never have been saved.

By Hill Top's standards,
it's likely that
you have never known anyone who has ever been saved,
other than,
maybe,Hill Top.
By Hill Top's standards,
if a person has sinned
after being water baptized,
they were never saved.
And, their water baptism was invalid.
That said, would it really hurt anything to get baptized again every time one is born again, again?
The whole belief system boils down to taking a single verse in 1 John chapter 3 out of context and building a doctrine from it. False doctrines are generally built that way.
I agree with your last statement, Luchnia.

Hilltop, I have a question. Have you ever met another Christian?
Yes: as faith cometh by hearing, I heard it from those who have repented from sin and been reborn of God's seed.
Putting the question another way, Have you ever met a person that agrees with your (mis)understanding of 1 John 3:9?
Yes.
There are others who sought after and found, the way of Christ.
Others, so tired of and sorry for their past sins they would give up their lives to be free of sin.
And they did just that.
Last edited by Hill Top on Tue May 12, 2020 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.



Hill Top
Blessings are Upon the Head of the Just
Posts: 1720
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:29 pm

Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:59 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:03 pm
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Which part of that don't you believe?
Have you looked at Dake's notes on 1st John 3:9?
No, as I have none of his writings...only some videos.
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:59 pm
Being born again is contingent upon God's Seed remaining in a person.
What does "in" mean? What is necessary for the Seed to remain "in" someone?
"In" means "inside" of one.
It is necessary to kill the seed of Adam so one can be reborn of God.
We can only manifest the seed we are really born of.
Those born of Adamic seed manifest that seed with their sins.
Those born of God's seed manifest that seed by their uncompromising obedience to God.
In his notes on 1st John 3:9, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler

I agree with rev Dake in everything but "it" being a secret.

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:59 pm
The above is some of Dake's view concerning how 1st John 3:9 is understood within his brand of dispensationalism. Other brands often go so far as to say that 1st John 3:9 is not written to the Gentile Church and therefore does not apply. Still others would say that 1st John 3:9 only applies to the spirit of man, believing that the soul and body still need work, but that the born again spirit is incapable of sin (or at least incapable of sin except in the most extreme cases).

Who are you going to believe?
How about examining the "fruit" of the adherents of each version of the understanding of 1 John 3:9.
If it brings forth sin...toss it out.
It is not of God.

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:59 pm
Your understanding of this verse is not the only possible understanding. And, the few options that I've touched on are only some of the possible ways to understand this verse.

To me, the verse seems to be utilizing a farming metaphor where the person is the ground into which the seed is sown. What responsibility or ability does the ground have in this scenario?

The ground has nothing at all to do with the "picture" Jesus and John refer to.

Fig seeds (God's seed-righteous love) cannot bear grapes (Adamic seed-sin).



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luchnia
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:21 pm
luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:42 pm
Most of the time pulling a verse out of context is bound for failure. Basing a doctrine on misunderstanding a verse is dangerous and often leads to the type of false doctrine that we see here.
Context is important, but so is ones method of approaching how to understand the scriptures. The lens through which we view the overall harmony of the scriptures will greatly color our perspective of a given scripture.
Yes, so true. A bias takes what it sees through the lens and builds upon that without seeing what is not in the lens and as you put it, "will greatly color our perspective." The bias narrows the focus and believes what it sees is in harmony with the rest when it is only part of the picture and the perception of that picture is not in harmony with the rest.

It took me years to start understanding this and I have a long, long way to go. There are times when the "narrow lens" I am peering through keeps me at bay and I have to be extremely vigilant to realize it and make sure I don't improperly build upon that.

It requires openness and hard work to see what is outside of that focus region and to understand that I may have seen the focus area incorrectly because of what is outside of it. If I have built up beliefs on the narrow focus I have missed it and over the years I have done so in many areas.


Word up!

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luchnia
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:02 am
The ground has nothing at all to do with the "picture" Jesus and John refer to.
One could ask how you can read God's word and can come to such a conclusion, especially when much of what Jesus taught was about the soil and how the soil must be or the seed cannot grow.

Seed can be stolen, snatched away, blown away, have no depth for root, choked out, burned up, eaten by animals, planted in tainted soil, and so on. It is a very simple concept that Jesus taught and easy for most to understand yet you refuse this part of His teaching.

I am perplexed as to why this is such a struggle for you to understand these simple concepts that Jesus taught. There is a reason you disregard many things that Jesus taught in this area. Finding that reason and what hinders you in understanding would be life changing for you.


Word up!

Hill Top
Blessings are Upon the Head of the Just
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:43 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:02 am
The ground has nothing at all to do with the "picture" Jesus and John refer to.
One could ask how you can read God's word and can come to such a conclusion, especially when much of what Jesus taught was about the soil and how the soil must be or the seed cannot grow.

Seed can be stolen, snatched away, blown away, have no depth for root, choked out, burned up, eaten by animals, planted in tainted soil, and so on. It is a very simple concept that Jesus taught and easy for most to understand yet you refuse this part of His teaching.

I am perplexed as to why this is such a struggle for you to understand these simple concepts that Jesus taught. There is a reason you disregard many things that Jesus taught in this area. Finding that reason and what hinders you in understanding would be life changing for you.
The point is that seeds can only bring forth after their originator.
Grapes seeds cannot bear figs and God's seed cannot bear liars and murderers.



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luchnia
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:45 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:43 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:02 am
The ground has nothing at all to do with the "picture" Jesus and John refer to.
One could ask how you can read God's word and can come to such a conclusion, especially when much of what Jesus taught was about the soil and how the soil must be or the seed cannot grow.

Seed can be stolen, snatched away, blown away, have no depth for root, choked out, burned up, eaten by animals, planted in tainted soil, and so on. It is a very simple concept that Jesus taught and easy for most to understand yet you refuse this part of His teaching.

I am perplexed as to why this is such a struggle for you to understand these simple concepts that Jesus taught. There is a reason you disregard many things that Jesus taught in this area. Finding that reason and what hinders you in understanding would be life changing for you.
The point is that seeds can only bring forth after their originator.
Grapes seeds cannot bear figs and God's seed cannot bear liars and murderers.
A grape seed bearing a fig has nothing to do with any of this. Seed only produces after its own kind as has been mentioned time and time again. God's seed cannot bear evil, it is impossible, but the one with God's seed can, because they can do exactly what Jesus said they can do with the seed.

This is not complicated. The evil one can snatch that seed right out of them as it is written. The pure fact is that you don't agree with what Jesus taught about seed and how the heart of man works by that seed. BTW Jesus teaching about seed is from God and not something He made up.


Word up!

Hill Top
Blessings are Upon the Head of the Just
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:05 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:45 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 6:43 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:02 am
The ground has nothing at all to do with the "picture" Jesus and John refer to.
One could ask how you can read God's word and can come to such a conclusion, especially when much of what Jesus taught was about the soil and how the soil must be or the seed cannot grow.

Seed can be stolen, snatched away, blown away, have no depth for root, choked out, burned up, eaten by animals, planted in tainted soil, and so on. It is a very simple concept that Jesus taught and easy for most to understand yet you refuse this part of His teaching.

I am perplexed as to why this is such a struggle for you to understand these simple concepts that Jesus taught. There is a reason you disregard many things that Jesus taught in this area. Finding that reason and what hinders you in understanding would be life changing for you.
The point is that seeds can only bring forth after their originator.
Grapes seeds cannot bear figs and God's seed cannot bear liars and murderers.
A grape seed bearing a fig has nothing to do with any of this. Seed only produces after its own kind as has been mentioned time and time again. God's seed cannot bear evil, it is impossible, but the one with God's seed can, because they can do exactly what Jesus said they can do with the seed.
If, as you rightly say, "seed only produces after its own kind", its own kind continues to carry that same seed forward.
Those born of God cannot commit murder or tell lies, which would be contrary to the seed they are born of.
This is not complicated. The evil one can snatch that seed right out of them as it is written. The pure fact is that you don't agree with what Jesus taught about seed and how the heart of man works by that seed. BTW Jesus teaching about seed is from God and not something He made up.
It isn't complicated, but the "seed parable" confronts an entirely different situation than does John's thesis.
In the parable, Jesus points out how different men react to the truth.
Some reject it, some make a stab at it, and some try for a while and give up altogether.
But some bring forth the fruit of the word of God.
In 1 John 3, John authors the effect of the seed in the reborn.
It is in effect, an epilogue of Jesus' parable.
He is dealing with those portrayed earlier by Jesus as "good ground" in verse 9, and those who never accepted it in verses 8 and 10.
V 8..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
V 10..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,"
If men are bringing forth the fruit of the devil, the seed of God is not in them.



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luchnia
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:59 pm
It isn't complicated, but the "seed parable" confronts an entirely different situation than does John's thesis.
"...confronts an entirely different situation..." not surprising, but fascinating how you constantly change scripture concepts to support your pov. Why not simply believe what Jesus and John said knowing that John did not teach contrary to what Jesus taught?

BTW in the parable of the sower there are some important words about each "he" Jesus spoke about and that is that they "received seed." It is what they did with the seed after receiving it that was the problem that caused it to be stolen by the evil one. Show a scripture in John's "different situation" that indicates the seed of God cannot be stolen by the evil one. Correct, it isn't there.

If you will understand 1 John chapter 3:1-10 you can receive light on this and see how it relates and supports exactly what Jesus taught in the parable of the sower and is in no way a "different situation" as you put it.


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Hill Top »

luchnia wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:47 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:59 pm
It isn't complicated, but the "seed parable" confronts an entirely different situation than does John's thesis.
"...confronts an entirely different situation..." not surprising, but fascinating how you constantly change scripture concepts to support your pov. Why not simply believe what Jesus and John said knowing that John did not teach contrary to what Jesus taught?
Their teachings are not "contrary" to one another, but supportive.
Jesus says who will bear fruit, and John says who has born fruit unto God.
BTW in the parable of the sower there are some important words about each "he" Jesus spoke about and that is that they "received seed." It is what they did with the seed after receiving it that was the problem that caused it to be stolen by the evil one. Show a scripture in John's "different situation" that indicates the seed of God cannot be stolen by the evil one. Correct, it isn't there.
There is one, 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Another is 2 Peter 1:10..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
And...""Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
And..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
And..."
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
He that is begotten of God keepeth himself...
He that is not begotten of God doesn't.
If you will understand 1 John chapter 3:1-10 you can receive light on this and see how it relates and supports exactly what Jesus taught in the parable of the sower and is in no way a "different situation" as you put it.
The parable of the sower is about who WILL bring forth fruit unto God.
John's letter is about those that HAVE or have not brought forth fruit unto God.



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luchnia
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Hill Top wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 10:59 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 5:47 am
Hill Top wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:59 pm
It isn't complicated, but the "seed parable" confronts an entirely different situation than does John's thesis.
"...confronts an entirely different situation..." not surprising, but fascinating how you constantly change scripture concepts to support your pov. Why not simply believe what Jesus and John said knowing that John did not teach contrary to what Jesus taught?
Their teachings are not "contrary" to one another, but supportive.
Jesus says who will bear fruit, and John says who has born fruit unto God.
BTW in the parable of the sower there are some important words about each "he" Jesus spoke about and that is that they "received seed." It is what they did with the seed after receiving it that was the problem that caused it to be stolen by the evil one. Show a scripture in John's "different situation" that indicates the seed of God cannot be stolen by the evil one. Correct, it isn't there.
There is one, 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Another is 2 Peter 1:10..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
And...""Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
And..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
And..."
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)
He that is begotten of God keepeth himself...
He that is not begotten of God doesn't.
If you will understand 1 John chapter 3:1-10 you can receive light on this and see how it relates and supports exactly what Jesus taught in the parable of the sower and is in no way a "different situation" as you put it.
The parable of the sower is about who WILL bring forth fruit unto God.
John's letter is about those that HAVE or have not brought forth fruit unto God.
Consider how learning something that is incorrect and constantly reinforcing something incorrect, it never becomes correct, yet becomes your truth.

A simple example such as someone teaches you to swing a hammer at a nail by hitting it from the side and bending the nail each time you swing the hammer. They are a bad teacher and have given you incorrect information, yet because you don't see the error of the teacher and that is the wrong way to hit a nail, you continue to practice that until you got it down and can bend every nail you hit.

I won't belabor this, you have been shown scripture in 1 John and other text that refutes your doctrine on this and yet you hold strong which is your right and there is something to be said for persistence, yet a man can be persistent and still drive nails from the side and bend all of them never able to build anything with a hammer.

I disagree with your view of this and it is my opinion the word of God is clearly contrary to your view in many places. A farmer that has no clue about farming, need not plant seed. As the old saying goes, "To each his own."


Word up!

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