Dake Bible Discussion BoardThe Manifest Sons of God

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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Spiritblade Disciple
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Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
Hill Top doesn't believe that he has sinned in over 14 years. He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again. He believes that being born again occurs at the moment of genuine water baptism.

Have you sinned since your water baptism?

If so...

By Hill Top's standards,
you aren't saved
and never have been saved.

By Hill Top's standards,
it's likely that
you have never known anyone who has ever been saved,
other than,
maybe,Hill Top.

By Hill Top's standards,
if a person has sinned
after being water baptized,
they were never saved.
And, their water baptism was invalid.

That said, would it really hurt anything to get baptized again every time one is born again, again?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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dolph
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by dolph »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
Hill Top doesn't believe that he has sinned in over 14 years. He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again. He believes that being born again occurs at the moment of genuine water baptism.

Have you sinned since your water baptism?

If so...

By Hill Top's standards,
you aren't saved
and never have been saved.

By Hill Top's standards,
it's likely that
you have never known anyone who has ever been saved,
other than,
maybe,Hill Top.

By Hill Top's standards,
if a person has sinned
after being water baptized,
they were never saved.
And, their water baptism was invalid.

That said, would it really hurt anything to get baptized again every time one is born again, again?
So, Hilltop is a combo of once saved always saved and no sinning while saved. Spirit blade didn't you mean above, "He does believe that those that are..."? I am familiar with his stand on salvation, I was just being overly polite.



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dolph
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Re: The Manifest Sons of God

Post by dolph »

It appears Mr. Hilltop has gone on vacation or has he painted himself into a corner?



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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again.



dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:17 pm
So, Hilltop is a combo of once saved always saved and no sinning while saved. Spirit blade didn't you mean above, "He does believe that those that are..."? I am familiar with his stand on salvation, I was just being overly polite.
If I would have written it as "He does believe that those that are..." I would have had to have finishied it like this... "truly born again never sin in any way ever again."

Putting it all together, it would read as follows:
"He does believe that those that are truly born again never sin in any way ever again."

To me, this is equivalent to saying, "He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again."

The version that reads "He does believe that those that are truly born again never sin in any way ever again" is probably easier to understand, though. Thanks for the assist.


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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luchnia
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
Hill Top doesn't believe that he has sinned in over 14 years. He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again. He believes that being born again occurs at the moment of genuine water baptism.

Have you sinned since your water baptism?

If so...

By Hill Top's standards,
you aren't saved
and never have been saved.

By Hill Top's standards,
it's likely that
you have never known anyone who has ever been saved,
other than,
maybe,Hill Top.

By Hill Top's standards,
if a person has sinned
after being water baptized,
they were never saved.
And, their water baptism was invalid.

That said, would it really hurt anything to get baptized again every time one is born again, again?
The whole belief system boils down to taking a single verse in 1 John chapter 3 out of context and building a doctrine from it. False doctrines are generally built that way.


Word up!

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dolph
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by dolph »

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:04 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
Hill Top doesn't believe that he has sinned in over 14 years. He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again. He believes that being born again occurs at the moment of genuine water baptism.

Have you sinned since your water baptism?

If so...

By Hill Top's standards,
you aren't saved
and never have been saved.

By Hill Top's standards,
it's likely that
you have never known anyone who has ever been saved,
other than,
maybe,Hill Top.

By Hill Top's standards,
if a person has sinned
after being water baptized,
they were never saved.
And, their water baptism was invalid.

That said, would it really hurt anything to get baptized again every time one is born again, again?
The whole belief system boils down to taking a single verse in 1 John chapter 3 out of context and building a doctrine from it. False doctrines are generally built that way.
I agree with your last statement, Luchnia.

Hilltop, I have a question. Have you ever met another Christian? Putting the question another way, Have you ever met a person that agrees with your (mis)understanding of 1 John 3:9?



Hill Top
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Re: Have You Sinned Since Your Water Baptism?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:33 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:56 pm
dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:43 pm
You are starting to sound like the man who hasn't sinned since being born again.
He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again.



dolph wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:17 pm
So, Hilltop is a combo of once saved always saved and no sinning while saved. Spirit blade didn't you mean above, "He does believe that those that are..."? I am familiar with his stand on salvation, I was just being overly polite.
If I would have written it as "He does believe that those that are..." I would have had to have finishied it like this... "truly born again never sin in any way ever again."

Putting it all together, it would read as follows:
"He does believe that those that are truly born again never sin in any way ever again."

To me, this is equivalent to saying, "He doesn't believe that those that are truly born again ever sin in any way ever again."

The version that reads "He does believe that those that are truly born again never sin in any way ever again" is probably easier to understand, though. Thanks for the assist.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Which part of that don't you believe?



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For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Hill Top wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:03 pm
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Which part of that don't you believe?
Have you looked at Dake's notes on 1st John 3:9?

Being born again is contingent upon God's Seed remaining in a person.

What does "in" mean? What is necessary for the Seed to remain "in" someone?
In his notes on 1st John 3:9, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler
The above represents only part of his notes on 1st John 3:9. It is also dealt with in several other places in Dake's works.

The above is some of Dake's view concerning how 1st John 3:9 is understood within his brand of dispensationalism. Other brands often go so far as to say that 1st John 3:9 is not written to the Gentile Church and therefore does not apply. Still others would say that 1st John 3:9 only applies to the spirit of man, believing that the soul and body still need work, but that the born again spirit is incapable of sin (or at least incapable of sin except in the most extreme cases).

Your understanding of this verse is not the only possible understanding. And, the few options that I've touched on are only some of the possible ways to understand this verse.

To me, the verse seems to be utilizing a farming metaphor where the person is the ground into which the seed is sown. What responsibility or ability does the ground have in this scenario?


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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luchnia
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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by luchnia »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:59 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 3:03 pm
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)
Which part of that don't you believe?
Have you looked at Dake's notes on 1st John 3:9?

Being born again is contingent upon God's Seed remaining in a person.

What does "in" mean? What is necessary for the Seed to remain "in" someone?
In his notes on 1st John 3:9, Rev. Dr. Finis Jennings Dake wrote:
► Show Spoiler
The above represents only part of his notes on 1st John 3:9. It is also dealt with in several other places in Dake's works.

The above is some of Dake's view concerning how 1st John 3:9 is understood within his brand of dispensationalism. Other brands often go so far as to say that 1st John 3:9 is not written to the Gentile Church and therefore does not apply. Still others would say that 1st John 3:9 only applies to the spirit of man, believing that the soul and body still need work, but that the born again spirit is incapable of sin (or at least incapable of sin except in the most extreme cases).

Your understanding of this verse is not the only possible understanding. And, the few options that I've touched on are only some of the possible ways to understand this verse.

To me, the verse seems to be utilizing a farming metaphor where the person is the ground into which the seed is sown. What responsibility or ability does the ground have in this scenario?
Yes, as I have pointed out multiple times. Even Jesus taught much about what happens to seed and most importantly the purpose of the soil and how it works in the process.

The evil one can snatch the seed right out of the spirit of man if allowed. It happened many times in scripture and men turned to evil.

Most of the time pulling a verse out of context is bound for failure. Basing a doctrine on misunderstanding a verse is dangerous and often leads to the type of false doctrine that we see here.


Word up!

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Re: For His Seed Remaineth IN Him?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

luchnia wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 6:42 pm
Most of the time pulling a verse out of context is bound for failure. Basing a doctrine on misunderstanding a verse is dangerous and often leads to the type of false doctrine that we see here.
Context is important, but so is ones method of approaching how to understand the scriptures. The lens through which we view the overall harmony of the scriptures will greatly color our perspective of a given scripture.


Matthew 5:19-20 New King James Version
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

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