Dake Bible Discussion BoardWHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple »

Ironman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:26 pm
We know from James 1:13 that God does not tempt us to sin. If God did tempt us to sin, He would be acting contrary to His holy nature, against His desire for us to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and against all other commandments in Scripture that tell us to avoid sin and flee temptation. In the Lord’s model prayer (Matthew 6:9–13), Jesus says, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (verse 13). The inclusion of a request for God not to lead us into temptation teaches us that avoiding temptation should be one of the primary concerns of the Christian life.
The request is for God not to lead us into temptation. Although God does not tempt, that does not prohibit Him from leading someone into temptation. He did so with Jesus when the Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tempted.

If God does not lead into temptation, then this part of the prayer has been said in vain for millennia.


John 14:21 New King James Version
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 am
I thank God for the constant provision of grace to live perfectly free from all unrighteousness.
You write like God won't ever do this.????
Got a quick question here...
How do you pray this part of the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
I mean since you do not have any sins to be forgiven of - what do you say?

I don't pray a prayer that has already been answered.
I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if "hurt" again in the future.

And since you are already delivered from evil and have no evil to be delivered from - what would you say?

I thank God every day for His deliverance from evil and pray that I, and those I love or have met, will also be in safety.

Just wondering how these words of Jesus fit into the "I am perfect and have never sinned since salvation" model of life.

Salvation won't be evident till after the day of judgement, so your question is a strawman.
It is up to us to remain, as Paul put it..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
As for the Lord's prayers relevance to us today?
It is a pattern to follow...
Honor God and His name (Jesus).
His kingdom has come/is here and His will is being done here already so that part is more of a thanksgiving for being in His kingdom and being able to do His will, now, on earth.
Thanksgiving and grateful hope for continued sustenance is next, but the next part is more about what I wrote above..."I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if I'm "hurt" again in the future."
We know God doesn't "lead us into temptation", so that part is out, but we can continue to ask for His protection from evil.
Does that answer the question?


Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?

Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.



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bibleman
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by bibleman »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 am
I thank God for the constant provision of grace to live perfectly free from all unrighteousness.
You write like God won't ever do this.????
Got a quick question here...
How do you pray this part of the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
I mean since you do not have any sins to be forgiven of - what do you say?

I don't pray a prayer that has already been answered.
I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if "hurt" again in the future.

And since you are already delivered from evil and have no evil to be delivered from - what would you say?

I thank God every day for His deliverance from evil and pray that I, and those I love or have met, will also be in safety.

Just wondering how these words of Jesus fit into the "I am perfect and have never sinned since salvation" model of life.

Salvation won't be evident till after the day of judgement, so your question is a strawman.
It is up to us to remain, as Paul put it..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
As for the Lord's prayers relevance to us today?
It is a pattern to follow...
Honor God and His name (Jesus).
His kingdom has come/is here and His will is being done here already so that part is more of a thanksgiving for being in His kingdom and being able to do His will, now, on earth.
Thanksgiving and grateful hope for continued sustenance is next, but the next part is more about what I wrote above..."I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if I'm "hurt" again in the future."
We know God doesn't "lead us into temptation", so that part is out, but we can continue to ask for His protection from evil.
Does that answer the question?


Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?

Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.


So from your response I am guessing that you are saying the disciples needed to pray that prayer since they were not perfect as you are... is that right?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Grandfather »

luchnia wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:19 pm
I understand what you are stating, yet for me I don't see scenario two as sin by my understanding of sin or wrong for that matter. I have caused harm to people without intention and did not even know it caused a problem. I can recall a number of instances this has occurred. Had I had a way of knowing certain events would cause harm to another, I would have figured out something different.

I think there is a big difference in missing the moral mark versus a simple mistake we might make. I don't define a mistake as a wrong. In the majority of cases that I am aware of the human mind does not contain the foreknowledge necessary to avoid making all mistakes that will happen in our lives. I know my mind doesn't and seems a bit worse since I am much older now.
I would venture that we have differing views as to what is "sin."

I hold that SIN is an overused word by Christians. Not overused in the common idea of using it too frequently, but instead it is applied too frequently when words like TRESSPASS, TRANSGRESSION and INIQUITY are more appropriate. Yes, both transgressions and iniquities are sin, but I do not believe all sins rise to the degree of these three. Jesus mentioned obeying the "weightier portions" of the law. Therefore I not all "sins" are equally as evil, but that all sins are deadly. There may be such as thing as "white lies" and "real lies" but there is not such as thing as a "white sin".

Next, I believe in the faithfulness of God and his love. Anyone touched by God's love seeks to love him in return. They purpose to honor and please Him in all they do. When they fall short (miss the mark) they are grieved by it, they do not hide it. Instead they run to "Daddy" and seek his strength and love to overcome it. God does not turn his back on his children when they sin, instead he searches for them as he did Adam in the garden.

Now, like a good father he sees the work of his children What a father finds as acceptable behavior in a two year old is not the same as what is acceptable in a twenty two year old. A father would understand that a two year old is not potty trained, but would he accept the same "accidents" from a normal and healthy twentytwo year old? Not likely. Similarly a father will expect a difference between someone that is 22 and someone that is 42.

As I mature in God, I am finding that some of my actions that I once called "mistakes of good intention" were indeed sinful. Does that mean I was "unsaved" from then until I acknowledged them? Or does it reveal the powerful love of God that he did not hold them against me, even though I was guilty? I believe it was the latter.

I am running a race. I have not completed that race. The goal of that race is the high calling. It would appear that some here believe they have finished that race. They seem to have completed the course. If they have I said 'good for you' but as for me, I'm running my race (not your race) I am not disqualified, I'm still running. If you can't cheer me on, then simply "shut up" and move on, because regardless of what "they" think. I am not disqualified because I am still throwing off those things which entangle and ensnare me, and sadly the more closely I look, the more I find.



Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:48 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:22 pm
We know God doesn't "lead us into temptation", so that part is out
I believe you are mistaken about that.

If it is true that God does not lead people into temptation, why did Jesus teach His disciples to ask to not be led into temptation?
I have no idea.



Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:52 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 am
I thank God for the constant provision of grace to live perfectly free from all unrighteousness.
You write like God won't ever do this.????
Got a quick question here...
How do you pray this part of the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
I mean since you do not have any sins to be forgiven of - what do you say?

I don't pray a prayer that has already been answered.
I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if "hurt" again in the future.

And since you are already delivered from evil and have no evil to be delivered from - what would you say?

I thank God every day for His deliverance from evil and pray that I, and those I love or have met, will also be in safety.

Just wondering how these words of Jesus fit into the "I am perfect and have never sinned since salvation" model of life.

Salvation won't be evident till after the day of judgement, so your question is a strawman.
It is up to us to remain, as Paul put it..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
As for the Lord's prayers relevance to us today?
It is a pattern to follow...
Honor God and His name (Jesus).
His kingdom has come/is here and His will is being done here already so that part is more of a thanksgiving for being in His kingdom and being able to do His will, now, on earth.
Thanksgiving and grateful hope for continued sustenance is next, but the next part is more about what I wrote above..."I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if I'm "hurt" again in the future."
We know God doesn't "lead us into temptation", so that part is out, but we can continue to ask for His protection from evil.
Does that answer the question?


Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?

Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.


So from your response I am guessing that you are saying the disciples needed to pray that prayer since they were not perfect as you are... is that right?

They were still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit as the Lord has enabled us to do today.
They couldn't be perfect till they had cast off the flesh and started walking in the Spirit.



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branham1965
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by branham1965 »

Way to put that Pastor Bible. :angel: :turn-l:
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:52 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:22 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 12:43 am
I thank God for the constant provision of grace to live perfectly free from all unrighteousness.
You write like God won't ever do this.????
Got a quick question here...
How do you pray this part of the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
I mean since you do not have any sins to be forgiven of - what do you say?

I don't pray a prayer that has already been answered.
I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if "hurt" again in the future.

And since you are already delivered from evil and have no evil to be delivered from - what would you say?

I thank God every day for His deliverance from evil and pray that I, and those I love or have met, will also be in safety.

Just wondering how these words of Jesus fit into the "I am perfect and have never sinned since salvation" model of life.

Salvation won't be evident till after the day of judgement, so your question is a strawman.
It is up to us to remain, as Paul put it..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
As for the Lord's prayers relevance to us today?
It is a pattern to follow...
Honor God and His name (Jesus).
His kingdom has come/is here and His will is being done here already so that part is more of a thanksgiving for being in His kingdom and being able to do His will, now, on earth.
Thanksgiving and grateful hope for continued sustenance is next, but the next part is more about what I wrote above..."I thank God for forgiving me and for showing me how to forgive others from my past, and to be always ready to forgive others if I'm "hurt" again in the future."
We know God doesn't "lead us into temptation", so that part is out, but we can continue to ask for His protection from evil.
Does that answer the question?


Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?

Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.


So from your response I am guessing that you are saying the disciples needed to pray that prayer since they were not perfect as you are... is that right?



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bibleman
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by bibleman »

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:02 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:52 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?
Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.
So from your response I am guessing that you are saying the disciples needed to pray that prayer since they were not perfect as you are... is that right?
They were still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit as the Lord has enabled us to do today.
They couldn't be perfect till they had cast off the flesh and started walking in the Spirit.
OK so let's see what we have here...

You are perfect but the disciples of Jesus were not.

You and Jesus are pretty much one in the same since you both live your lives in fear.

HUM... Hard to believe someone could believe that.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Grandfather
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Grandfather »

bibleman wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:20 am
OK so let's see what we have here...

You are perfect but the disciples of Jesus were not.

You and Jesus are pretty much one in the same since you both live your lives in fear.

HUM... Hard to believe someone could believe that.
It is really not that difficult to believe that someone would believe this.

History is fully of cultists who were lead by people that held this excate same opinion. So, our friend Hilltop is not the first to arrive at this assumption. Sadly I doubt he will not be the last either.



Hill Top
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Re: WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING PERFECT?

Post by Hill Top »

bibleman wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:20 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:02 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:52 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 pm
bibleman wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:54 pm
Yes you answered the question. I know how you pray that prayer. Thanks.
But WHO then did Jesus have in mind that he would teach THEM to pray:
"Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."
Is that just for sinners?
Is it a one time only prayer that UNsaved people pray and once prayed they are saved?
What do you think?
Jesus was addressing His disciples.
The prayer pattern was for them.
So from your response I am guessing that you are saying the disciples needed to pray that prayer since they were not perfect as you are... is that right?
They were still walking in the flesh instead of in the Spirit as the Lord has enabled us to do today.
They couldn't be perfect till they had cast off the flesh and started walking in the Spirit.
OK so let's see what we have here...
You are perfect but the disciples of Jesus were not.
If the disciples had been able to be perfect, in the OT, there would have been no point in the death of Jesus Christ...unless you believe He came to save the sacrificial animals and not men.
You and Jesus are pretty much one in the same since you both live your lives in fear.
HUM... Hard to believe someone could believe that.
What an odd take on things posted.
Just because we both shared in a common feeling, doesn't make us "one".
Jesus' prayer does however makes us "one"..."And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (John 17:22)
To be in a religion where one is not "one with Christ" would scare me towards Christianity.



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