Dake Bible Discussion BoardCalling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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luchnia wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:31 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:14 pm
luchnia wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:58 am
Grandfather wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:13 pm
luchnia wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:59 pm
My question would be how can you sin and not know it? Some believe that mistakes are sin. Although I have heard it taught that you can sin and not know it, I am not one of those that hold to the belief and I don't believe that is a scriptural concept, but I believe I know how that understanding is arrived at.
I see you did not even attempt to answer my question? Why is that?
I thought I did answer it. I may be misunderstanding your intent. I answered with a question to clarify, but the answer as far as looking back at myself and seeing things that others might call sin is no if you want a one word answer. I would wonder what you considered being "in sin" while you were growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus. How can I speak to others that believe they are "in sin" if I do not understand what they mean by being in that state?

I can usually tell if someone has missed the moral mark and in sin, but that is difficult in a forum such as this as I could not possibly see their fruits. All I can rely on here is what someone types in these posts which I simply choose not to put a great amount of stake into.
perhaps you did... you have never sinned without knowing it.

Amazing you have never been deceived by something, truly deceived to the point where you actually thought "it" was right. Amazing you have never had some other saints come to you and share the truth of God's word that revealed an area of your heart that needed the light of God's Word on it.

That is truly amazing, and unbelievable.
I have been deceived by many things, but nothing that has ever made me choose sin. I refuse it. I would state it is probably because I choose who I hang around with and I simply refuse to partake of anything that to me even remotely would lead me astray. I hope that makes sense. Paul even told Timothy to abstain from all appearances of evil. Not all are as fortunate as I have been over the past 30-40 years as I don't hang out around bars or do any of that. I have been richly blessed and have had many discussions with godly folks over my lifetime.

I have had saints bring up certain points about text, but never anything that somehow revealed an area of my heart that needed the light of God's word on it. I opened my heart to God's word on an on-going basis and continue to do so. I haven't had anybody call me to task about anything really. I had a women once call me a child of the devil though. :mrgreen:

I do remember debating an atheist for about 2 years. He knew more bible than the smartest saints I knew. If I could have been deceived he would have been one that could have done it, but I remained firm and steadfast and would not bend. He was a person that could challenge you quickly and knew God's word to the inth degree. He was simply brilliant. I often stood amazed at his scriptural knowledge. He had an argument proved from scripture that Jesus was actually satan. It was amazing how he had put it all together!
Amazing, unbelievably amazing. You are the first person I have met that has never been blinded to sin at any time since their conversion. Perfect knowledge, never having to grow in knowledge and wisdom. Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.



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luchnia
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:46 pm
Amazing, unbelievably amazing. You are the first person I have met that has never been blinded to sin at any time since their conversion. Perfect knowledge, never having to grow in knowledge and wisdom. Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.
I know quite a few people that have not been blinded to sin and refuse it. They simply do not allow sin a placeholder in their lives. It is surprising to me and unbelievable to me that you don't know anyone that has not been blinded by sin. Our realm of associated people must be very different. A man must put on God's clothes and walk fully clothed as we find in Ephesians.

I met a man this past winter I think he is in his seventies and has spent somewhere around 50-60 years for the Lord. It was a pleasure to see his "heart" about God and his wisdom. I don't have perfect knowledge nor wisdom by any stretch, but not having perfect knowledge nor wisdom has little to nothing to do with sin. Why equate not having perfect knowledge with sin? I think maybe we are not discussing the same thing at all and have a very different view of sin.

I grow in grace and knowledge every day of my life and continue. My life is a life of growth and a life of questions pertaining to the things of God. I am a seeker of the deep things of God. As a matter of fact, in the last five years I have been amazed as I age how different God's word has become to me. I think there are riches in God's word that I haven't even scratched the surface. The fundamental truths are there, but there is a wholeness now that I simply did not know years ago.


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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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luchnia wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:47 pm
Grandfather wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:46 pm
Amazing, unbelievably amazing. You are the first person I have met that has never been blinded to sin at any time since their conversion. Perfect knowledge, never having to grow in knowledge and wisdom. Unbelievable, truly unbelievable.
I know quite a few people that have not been blinded to sin and refuse it. They simply do not allow sin a placeholder in their lives. It is surprising to me and unbelievable to me that you don't know anyone that has not been blinded by sin. Our realm of associated people must be very different. A man must put on God's clothes and walk fully clothed as we find in Ephesians.

I met a man this past winter I think he is in his seventies and has spent somewhere around 50-60 years for the Lord. It was a pleasure to see his "heart" about God and his wisdom. I don't have perfect knowledge nor wisdom by any stretch, but not having perfect knowledge nor wisdom has little to nothing to do with sin. Why equate not having perfect knowledge with sin? I think maybe we are not discussing the same thing at all and have a very different view of sin.

I grow in grace and knowledge every day of my life and continue. My life is a life of growth and a life of questions pertaining to the things of God. I am a seeker of the deep things of God. As a matter of fact, in the last five years I have been amazed as I age how different God's word has become to me. I think there are riches in God's word that I haven't even scratched the surface. The fundamental truths are there, but there is a wholeness now that I did not know years ago.

I still find it unbelievable. If you don't have perfect knowledge, how did you accurately discern which actions were sin, which was not? Remember, I'm not saying that you made a place for sin, and did nothing about it. But that there was a sin that you did not even recognize as sin.

James tells us that for him that knows to do good and doesn't do it, to him, it is a sin. (James 4:17) So you never missed an opportunity to do good? Or if you did you did so intentional knowing it was a sin to do so. Amazing! I've lost many occasions, but I did not realize they were opportunities for good until so much later, so I did not realize it was a sin until then. But not you. You always recognized every opportunity and rose to the occasion, or you intentional chose to sin. Wow, you're terrific.

You never read a passage of scripture and discovered that you needed to be doing something that you were not doing already? I don't know if this is amazing or sad. I see new things that God requires of me every time I read His Word, but not you; you always know what is or is not sin. Again, unbelievable.

You have always longed to be in the House of God; you always were seeking ways to bless and lift the less fortunate than you from the very first day? Or you knowingly refuse to, knowing that it is sinful. Astounding. Not me, sorry. I did not know that when I was first saved.

You recognized pride at every turn and never had to say... oh, I see that may have been pride on my part I need to repent from that. But not you, you recognized it was pride from the start! You never used your freedom in any way that it was a stumbling block to your brothers, either intentional or unintentional and if you did you knew it was sin as soon as you did it. No one had to point it out to you; indeed, you are terrific. For me, God shows me pride in areas I thought I had none. God showed me how proud I was that I was humble.



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luchnia
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:08 pm
James tells us that for him that knows to do good and doesn't do it, to him, it is a sin. (James 4:17) So you never missed an opportunity to do good? Or if you did you did so intentional knowing it was a sin to do so. Amazing! I've lost many occasions, but I did not realize they were opportunities for good until so much later, so I did not realize it was a sin until then. But not you. You always recognized every opportunity and rose to the occasion, or you intentional chose to sin. Wow, you're terrific.
I appreciate your thoughts and your post on this. For the sake of brevity I took the James 4:17 verse that you point out. What is this knowledge of doing good and not doing it that becomes a sin? There is much in the context of that chapter.

You mention that you lost many occasions to do good not realizing they were opportunities. What would you say was the reason you did not realize it? Would that be a lack of knowledge of the opportunity at the time? Was it physical constraints? I think you have beaten yourself up about things that are simply not relevant. If you did not know, you did not know and that could not become sin to you, yet somehow you are convinced it was sin.

Let's look at this another way. To me everything goes back to Jesus and His work that shows us how to live. You an I both know that Jesus had no sin, yet He missed many opportunities, as we might call them, to help people simply because He could not be everywhere at once. Did He realize there were other opportunities around? With your logic you Jesus would have been in sin.

You cannot be everywhere at once and cannot help everyone, so because of being made that way (your construct by God's design) you believe it is sin? That would be like telling God because there are constraints on your physical body, He has caused you to sin because you cannot help everyone. This is another thing that simply cannot happen or God would be unjust. You did not make yourself constrained to time and place, God did by the way man is made, and it was right and good that He did it that way.

So what does the context in chapter 4 of James mean? He certainly cannot mean that Jesus sinned because we all know that Jesus knew to do good. What was James pointing out? Notice James mentions sinners (v8) and also brethren (v11) in that chapter.


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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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luchnia wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:25 am
You mention that you lost many occasions to do good not realizing they were opportunities. What would you say was the reason you did not realize it? Would that be a lack of knowledge of the opportunity at the time? Was it physical constraints? I think you have beaten yourself up about things that are simply not relevant. If you did not know, you did not know and that could not become sin to you, yet somehow you are convinced it was sin.
Does lack of time or physical constraints make it not a sin? James did not say "if you have the time." or "If you have the resources," He said "if you see an opportunity to do good and do not do it" Perhaps this is the reason you see yourself as never having sinned without knowing it, you have made excuses for it rather than confronting it.
luchnia wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:25 am
Let's look at this another way. To me everything goes back to Jesus and His work that shows us how to live. You an I both know that Jesus had no sin, yet He missed many opportunities, as we might call them, to help people simply because He could not be everywhere at once. Did He realize there were other opportunities around? With your logic you Jesus would have been in sin.
How do you know he missed opportunities?
luchnia wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:25 am
You cannot be everywhere at once and cannot help everyone, so because of being made that way (your construct by God's design) you believe it is sin? That would be like telling God because there are constraints on your physical body, He has caused you to sin because you cannot help everyone. This is another thing that simply cannot happen or God would be unjust. You did not make yourself constrained to time and place, God did by the way man is made, and it was right and good that He did it that way.
I do not have to be everywhere. How can I know to do good in a place that I am not present? One can only do good at the place they located. So this is a faulty position
luchnia wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:25 am
So what does the context in chapter 4 of James mean? He certainly cannot mean that Jesus sinned because we all know that Jesus knew to do good. What was James pointing out? Notice James mentions sinners (v8) and also brethren (v11) in that chapter.
You are the one twisting the example, not me, in an attempt to self-justify yourself.



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luchnia
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:40 pm

Does lack of time or physical constraints make it not a sin?
Luchnia wrote: Yes, because Jesus did not sin.
How do you know he missed opportunities?
Luchnia wrote: Apparently we don't define opportunity the same way.
I do not have to be everywhere. How can I know to do good in a place that I am not present? One can only do good at the place they located. So this is a faulty position
Luchnia wrote:I do not agree that the position is faulty as you have stated.
You are the one twisting the example, not me, in an attempt to self-justify yourself.
Luchnia wrote:I am unsure why you take this thought assumption and accuse me of something untrue based on a your perception of my typed thoughts in a chat forum. If you disagree with me, I respect that and no reason we cannot keep it at that level so we can grow our minds in the things of God as we are taught in God's word. If you disagree simply state the scriptural context supporting your disagreement.


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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather - Does lack of time or physical constraints make it not a sin?

Luchnia - Yes, because Jesus did not sin.

Grandfather - And when did he lack time? By your reasoning the Priest and the Levite that passed by the man on the Jericho road were without fault as well.



Lunchnia - Apparently we don't define opportunity the same way.

Grandfather - How does the Bible define it?



Grandfather - I do not have to be everywhere. How can I know to do good in a place that I am not present? One can only do good at the place they located. So this is a faulty position

Lunchnia - I do not agree that the position is faulty as you have stated.

Grandfather - Just because you disagree does not remove the fault. Please explain why one has to be everywhere to accomplish this?

Grandfather - You are the one twisting the example, not me, in an attempt to self-justify yourself.

Luchnia - I am unsure why you take this thought assumption and accuse me of something untrue based on a your perception of my typed thoughts in a chat forum. If you disagree with me, I respect that and no reason we cannot keep it at that level so we can grow our minds in the things of God as we are taught in God's word. If you disagree simply state the scriptural context supporting your disagreement.

Grandfather - perhaps you could use scripture to support your position. I did. James 4:17



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luchnia
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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Grandfather wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:37 am
Grandfather - Does lack of time or physical constraints make it not a sin?

Luchnia - Yes, because Jesus did not sin.

Grandfather - And when did he lack time? By your reasoning the Priest and the Levite that passed by the man on the Jericho road were without fault as well.



Lunchnia - Apparently we don't define opportunity the same way.

Grandfather - How does the Bible define it?



Grandfather - I do not have to be everywhere. How can I know to do good in a place that I am not present? One can only do good at the place they located. So this is a faulty position

Lunchnia - I do not agree that the position is faulty as you have stated.

Grandfather - Just because you disagree does not remove the fault. Please explain why one has to be everywhere to accomplish this?

Grandfather - You are the one twisting the example, not me, in an attempt to self-justify yourself.

Luchnia - I am unsure why you take this thought assumption and accuse me of something untrue based on a your perception of my typed thoughts in a chat forum. If you disagree with me, I respect that and no reason we cannot keep it at that level so we can grow our minds in the things of God as we are taught in God's word. If you disagree simply state the scriptural context supporting your disagreement.

Grandfather - perhaps you could use scripture to support your position. I did. James 4:17
Perhaps you could take the chapter as well as the book of James in context first to determine if it can support your inferred out of context single verse premise.


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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

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luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:44 am
Perhaps you could take the chapter as well as the book of James in context first to determine if it can support your inferred out of context single verse premise.
If I concede your point, can I make this same requirement of you when you do not the entire context of chapter and book to support your position? Or are you requesting something of me that you would not be willing to do yourself?



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luchnia
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Re: Calling Jesus a liar?

Post by luchnia »

Grandfather wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:31 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:44 am
Perhaps you could take the chapter as well as the book of James in context first to determine if it can support your inferred out of context single verse premise.
If I concede your point, can I make this same requirement of you when you do not the entire context of chapter and book to support your position?
Yes, absolutely you can make that requirement me! Without the whole what truth will there be for us in Him?


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