Dake Bible Discussion BoardGreen or Orange?

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:49 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:07 pm
So, neither Roman nor Protestant Catholic?
I don't often click on unsolicited sites, so I didn't see the OP one either.



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:53 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:04 am
Since water is required for baptism, can you point out the scriptures that show where water is used in the baptsim of the Holy Spirit?
Nope, not a one.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God.
The baptism of repentance...now done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is the one done with water...by men.



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:55 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:27 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:50 pm
If I tell a man to go to the hospital, do I also need to tell him to see a doctor for treatment?
Some people, you'd definitely have to tell them to see the doctor.
Why else would they be at the hospital?



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:59 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:28 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:50 pm
Was Jesus baptized at a certain time? Or the Ethiopian? Or anyone else?
Don't know for sure, but that does not mean that when they were water baptized that it was not during one of the Times of Refreshing.
You better look in Leviticus or Exodus for any mention of a "times of refreshing" before saying it was required.
To me, the time of refreshing was when I was quickened by the Holy Spirit after I turned from sin and was baptized for their remission.
Rebirth was my "refreshing".



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:07 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:32 am
Hill Top wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:50 pm
Why not just adhere to Peter's words in Acts 2:38...Turn from sins, get washed of past sins, and receive the gift of Holy Ghost?
Partial obedience is still disobedience.
I have no idea what you are writing about. ??
Acts 3:19 King James Version
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME from the presence of the Lord"

Peter did not offer to water baptize the folks that he preached this message unto. Instead, he told them that they needed to get right so that their sins might be blotted out when the Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence. This indicates that water baptism is not sufficient in and of itself to remit past sins. Else, Peter would have said, like he said elsewhere, "Repent, and be baptized... for the remission of sins."
Step one before step two.
If they were not interested in repenting of sins, their was no use telling them to get washed of their old sins.
Peter did say Cornelius should get baptized, didn't he?
Water baptizing at random times and expecting remission of sins might not have as much scriptural merit as some think if not performed in conjunction with the Times of Refreshing.
Scriptural merit?
Show one scripture describing or informing men when that "time" might be?



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:16 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:21 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:07 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:13 pm
If a baptizer and a repentant man fulfilled the requirements, Peter would not have spoken of future Times of Refreshing in Acts 3. To do so instead of baptizing, then and there, shows that Peter did not practice water baptism just because there might be converts present. Instead, he told them that there sins would be blotted out in the future if they repented and were converted when the next Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence.
What if they died before the "times"?
To imagine that there are seasonal variations in the love of God is ludicrous.
Why is that any more ludicrous than believing that God would not save someone just because they were not water baptized?
How about repentance from sin?
How about enduring till the end?
How about belief?
Is it ludicrous to believe that men who won't do these things won't be saved?
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16)
If baptism is some false notion, then so is belief and repentance and enduring.



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luchnia
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:03 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:53 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:04 am
Since water is required for baptism, can you point out the scriptures that show where water is used in the baptsim of the Holy Spirit?
Nope, not a one.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God.
The baptism of repentance...now done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is the one done with water...by men.
Thank you for the response. At least you acknowledge there is immersion/baptism without water.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit that is done by God, is that an immersion into, or is the one being baptized pulled up out of the Holy Spirit once dipped? In other words, if we apply the meaning to the word baptism as you define it (in the sense of water baptism not leaving one under the water), that would indicate such a one would be pulled out of the Holy Spirit after being dipped into the Holy Spirit.

BTW, John baptized people in water in the wilderness, and yet he also preached (spoke) the baptism of repentance. Why did John separate these two things? Did John not realize as you do they were the same? He preached a baptism of repentance AND he baptized people in water, just as he did Jesus. BTW, Jesus had no sin to be remitted from His water baptism, AND John did not preach the baptism of repentance to Jesus, but John water baptized Him.

Luke 3:1-6:
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 [a]while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, 4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.
5
Every valley shall be filled
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough ways smooth;
6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”

In Acts 19 Paul clears this up quite well:
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (My emphasis)

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (My emphasis - Why were they baptized again since they were already baptized under John's baptism? Was it John's baptism of belief on Jesus, or John's baptism of water?)

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


Word up!

Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:46 am

luchnia wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:03 am
Hill Top wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:53 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:04 am
Since water is required for baptism, can you point out the scriptures that show where water is used in the baptsim of the Holy Spirit?
Nope, not a one.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God.
The baptism of repentance...now done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is the one done with water...by men.
Thank you for the response. At least you acknowledge there is immersion/baptism without water.
There is a baptism without water, but not an immersion without water.
The baptism done by God is without water, but the baptism done by men is with water.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit that is done by God, is that an immersion into, or is the one being baptized pulled up out of the Holy Spirit once dipped?
There is no "dipping" in water, by God, in His giving of the Holy Spirit.
That doesn't simulate burial as water baptism does.
It would have the "whelmed" definition applied to it.
In other words, if we apply the meaning to the word baptism as you define it (in the sense of water baptism not leaving one under the water), that would indicate such a one would be pulled out of the Holy Spirit after being dipped into the Holy Spirit.
Different meaning.

BTW, John baptized people in water in the wilderness, and yet he also preached (spoke) the baptism of repentance. Why did John separate these two things? Did John not realize as you do they were the same? He preached a baptism of repentance AND he baptized people in water, just as he did Jesus.[/quote]
I have no idea where you came up with these being different scenarios.
The baptism unto repentance was done with/in water...for the remission of sins. (Mark 1:4-5)
BTW, Jesus had no sin to be remitted from His water baptism, AND John did not preach the baptism of repentance to Jesus, but John water baptized Him.
Yes John did, and Jesus said why..."for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness". (Matt 3:15)
John and Jesus fulfilled the prophetical cleansing done to the Levites to prepare them for the office of priest. (Num. 8:6, 14-16)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (My emphasis - Why were they baptized again since they were already baptized under John's baptism?
It was because John's baptism didn't include our sharing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)
He couldn't until Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead...which didn't happen till after John was martyred.
Was it John's baptism of belief on Jesus, or John's baptism of water?
John never baptized anyone using the name of Jesus Christ.



Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:48 am

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:46 am
luchnia wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:03 am
Hill Top wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:53 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:04 am
Since water is required for baptism, can you point out the scriptures that show where water is used in the baptsim of the Holy Spirit?
Nope, not a one.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God.
The baptism of repentance...now done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is the one done with water...by men.
Thank you for the response. At least you acknowledge there is immersion/baptism without water.
There is a baptism without water, but not an immersion without water.
The baptism done by God is without water, but the baptism done by men is with water.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit that is done by God, is that an immersion into, or is the one being baptized pulled up out of the Holy Spirit once dipped?
There is no "dipping" in water, by God, in His giving of the Holy Spirit.
That doesn't simulate burial as water baptism does.
It would have the "whelmed" definition applied to it.
In other words, if we apply the meaning to the word baptism as you define it (in the sense of water baptism not leaving one under the water), that would indicate such a one would be pulled out of the Holy Spirit after being dipped into the Holy Spirit.
Different meaning.
BTW, John baptized people in water in the wilderness, and yet he also preached (spoke) the baptism of repentance. Why did John separate these two things? Did John not realize as you do they were the same? He preached a baptism of repentance AND he baptized people in water, just as he did Jesus.
I have no idea where you came up with these being different scenarios.
The baptism unto repentance was done with/in water...for the remission of sins. (Mark 1:4-5)
BTW, Jesus had no sin to be remitted from His water baptism, AND John did not preach the baptism of repentance to Jesus, but John water baptized Him.
Yes John did, and Jesus said why..."for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness". (Matt 3:15)
John and Jesus fulfilled the prophetical cleansing done to the Levites to prepare them for the office of priest. (Num. 8:6, 14-16)
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (My emphasis - Why were they baptized again since they were already baptized under John's baptism?
It was because John's baptism didn't include our sharing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)
He couldn't until Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead...which didn't happen till after John was martyred.
Was it John's baptism of belief on Jesus, or John's baptism of water?
John never baptized anyone using the name of Jesus Christ.



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luchnia
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:08 am

Hill Top wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:46 am
Different meaning.
Luchnia wrote: BTW, John baptized people in water in the wilderness, and yet he also preached (spoke) the baptism of repentance. Why did John separate these two things? Did John not realize as you do they were the same? He preached a baptism of repentance AND he baptized people in water, just as he did Jesus.
I have no idea where you came up with these being different scenarios.
The baptism unto repentance was done with/in water...for the remission of sins. (Mark 1:4-5)
Plain scripture was given showing that belief on Jesus and water baptism are different - simply preaching repentance by turning from sin and believing on Jesus has nothing to do with water baptism whatsoever as has been shown. The two are only connected in the aspect of men being baptized by men (submersed and then pulled up out of water after repentance).

The simple verses given to illustrate the belief in Christ does not include water baptism, yet because of the belief you hold, it is understood that you are challenged when it comes to separating these two things. We see that John the Baptist and others such as Paul and Jesus knew the difference in these two things.

One thing to remember is that repentance from sin and turning to righteousness did not end with John the Baptist nor did it start with him. If one does not repent and believe (fully immersed) in Jesus then water baptism is a futile endeavor at best.

Another question for you, while people were being water baptized, do you think there were any that were baptized that may not have repented and turned from sin?


Word up!

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