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luchnia
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:30 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:20 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:16 am
Glad water baptism is not TO remit past sins and that Jesus did not miss such an important thing in all of His teaching. The nice thing is that Jesus did not teach the mandate of water baptism. He had many opportunities to do so, but did not and that one point alone is vital. We know Jesus did not fail in what He taught. As with the prostitute and others all the way unto the end of God's word, He taught exactly what must be done to be saved from sin.
It is written..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)
Jesus is commanding others to baptize in His name.
That is as clear as it gets.
Baptizing someone in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit does not indicate it is a requirement to remit past sins for salvation - a huge difference. I guess Jesus simply slipped up and did not tell the prostitute that she had to be water baptized to remit her past sins. Also he totally forgot to tell the thief on the cross that he had to be water baptized, so he went paradise carrying his past sins right along with him unless somehow Jesus water baptized him on the way.

When you think about it, Jesus forgot to baptize anyone and failed to make that a central theme of His message and make water baptism one of the requirements of salvation. As I stated before, if you believe you need to be water baptized to remit your past sins, then that is what you believe. I respect your right to believe what you believe.


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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm

Acts 3:19 King James Version
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME from the presence of the Lord"

Isn't it interesting that Peter did not offer to water baptize the folks that he preached this message unto? Instead, he told them that they needed to get right so that their since might be blotted out when the Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence. This indicates that water baptism is not sufficient in and of itself to remit past sins. Else, Peter would have said, like he said elsewhere, "Repent, and be baptized... for the remission of sins."

When are the Times of Refreshing? Given that Acts 2:38 was during Pentecost, are the Times of Refreshing set times according to God's calendar that He gave through Moses (such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles)? Or, are the Times of Refreshing as the Lord wills?

Water baptizing at random times and expecting remission of sins might not have as much scriptural merit as some think if not performed in conjunction with the Times of Refreshing.

Thoughts/Questions/Comments?
Image


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:36 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:30 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:20 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:16 am
Glad water baptism is not TO remit past sins and that Jesus did not miss such an important thing in all of His teaching. The nice thing is that Jesus did not teach the mandate of water baptism. He had many opportunities to do so, but did not and that one point alone is vital. We know Jesus did not fail in what He taught. As with the prostitute and others all the way unto the end of God's word, He taught exactly what must be done to be saved from sin.
It is written..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)
Jesus is commanding others to baptize in His name.
That is as clear as it gets.
Baptizing someone in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit does not indicate it is a requirement to remit past sins for salvation - a huge difference.
Then what Is it for?
You have moved the goal post, ignoring the focus of water baptism's necessity.
I guess Jesus simply slipped up and did not tell the prostitute that she had to be water baptized to remit her past sins.
Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins. (Matt 9:6)
Also he totally forgot to tell the thief on the cross that he had to be water baptized, so he went paradise carrying his past sins right along with him unless somehow Jesus water baptized him on the way.
Same again, Jesus had the power to forgive sin.
Besides the fact that the thief's ordeal is exactly the same as our's when we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)
When you think about it, Jesus forgot to baptize anyone and failed to make that a central theme of His message and make water baptism one of the requirements of salvation. As I stated before, if you believe you need to be water baptized to remit your past sins, then that is what you believe. I respect your right to believe what you believe.
Yet Jesus "allowed" His disciples to baptize more than men John the baptist did. (John 4:1)
BTW, Jesus did make it a priority for salvation in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16.

I do believe that water baptism is necessary to remit sins...and so did the Ethiopian, the Samaritans, Cornelius, the twelve at Ephesus, Gaius, Crispus, Stephanas, Peter, Philip, and Paul.



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:49 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm
Acts 3:19 King James Version
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME from the presence of the Lord"

Isn't it interesting that Peter did not offer to water baptize the folks that he preached this message unto? Instead, he told them that they needed to get right so that their since might be blotted out when the Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence. This indicates that water baptism is not sufficient in and of itself to remit past sins. Else, Peter would have said, like he said elsewhere, "Repent, and be baptized... for the remission of sins."
He did offer/command baptism in verse 38 of the same chapter of Acts.
When are the Times of Refreshing? Given that Acts 2:38 was during Pentecost, are the Times of Refreshing set times according to God's calendar that He gave through Moses (such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles)? Or, are the Times of Refreshing as the Lord wills?

Water baptizing at random times and expecting remission of sins might not have as much scriptural merit as some think if not performed in conjunction with the Times of Refreshing.

Thoughts/Questions/Comments?
Image
Does it matter?
As some refuse the very idea of water baptism, when and where it is done is a moot point.

The "presence of the Lord" happens at the reception of the Holy Ghost...procured by repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38)
Another idea is that "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20)
Wouldn't that encompass a baptizer and a repentant man?



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:25 am

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:36 pm
I do believe that water baptism is necessary to remit sins...and so did the Ethiopian, the Samaritans, Cornelius, the twelve at Ephesus, Gaius, Crispus, Stephanas, Peter, Philip, and Paul.
The thing is YOU believe that, but not one thing states that any of these people you mention believe that. You believe that they believed that.

Here are some thoughts for you. Do you believe someone can be continuously baptized (dipped) into something that is not an object like water? Example, can one be continually dipped in God's word, or dipped into a name? Did you know that it is believed that the word "baptize" was an untranslated word and that is why baptizo was used? The word has multiple meanings. What does it mean to immerse or plunge someone into the name of someone?

Here is something else to think about. If you dip/immerse someone in water, you will pull them up out of the water once they are submerged and not keep them under the water, or, as we know they will eventually drown. This is a single act of dipping and pulling out and not a continual act of dipping. If one is continually baptized into something they are continually dipped, immersed, or plunged into.

There is also the "overwhelming" into something such as being continuously overwhelmed into the Word or in the name of. You can also be submerged into the name of someone without being dipped into any object other than that name. To be dipped has various concepts to it and it is important to understand each concept where the term is used. We that are His are all immersed into one body, whether we were immersed into water or not.

It is believed that baptism referred to sunken ships of old which stayed submerged under the water and not a one time dipping and raising up as was the case with water baptism.

I think you have already posted the meanings of baptizo which go along the lines of:
1. To dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge
2. To cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe (a one time event which could be repeated when needed - similar to water baptism)
3. To overwhelm (the continual plunging or immersion into something - much like Jesus said to immerse them into the name of, and also our continual immersion into Christ)


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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:20 pm

luchnia wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:25 am
Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:36 pm
I do believe that water baptism is necessary to remit sins...and so did the Ethiopian, the Samaritans, Cornelius, the twelve at Ephesus, Gaius, Crispus, Stephanas, Peter, Philip, and Paul.
The thing is YOU believe that, but not one thing states that any of these people you mention believe that. You believe that they believed that.
You conveniently ignore the obvious.
I should have included John the baptist in my list, of whom it is written..."John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)
Can it get any clearer than, that water baptism DOES remit sins?
Any further argument is a testimony of rebellion against God.
What you teach is in direct opposition to Mark 1:4.
Here are some thoughts for you. Do you believe someone can be continuously baptized (dipped) into something that is not an object like water? Example, can one be continually dipped in God's word, or dipped into a name? What does it mean to immerse or plunge someone into the name of someone?
No.
Not in the context of joining with some One.
Here is something else to think about. If you dip/immerse someone in water, you will pull them up out of the water once they are submerged and not keep them under the water, or, as we know they will eventually drown. This is a single act of dipping and pulling out and not a continual act of dipping. If one is continually baptized into something they are continually dipped, immersed, or plunged into.
Like as we are buried with Christ, we are also raised with Christ...to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12)
There is also the "overwhelming" into something such as being continuously overwhelmed into the Word or in the name of. You can also be submerged into the name of someone without being dipped into any object other than that name. To be dipped has various concepts to it and it is important to understand each concept where the term is used. We that are His are all immersed into one body, whether we were immersed into water or not.
Were that true, then it will result in the effect listed in Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Do those shenanigans you list kill anybody?
It is believed that baptism referred to sunken ships of old which stayed submerged under the water and not a one time dipping and raising up as was the case with water baptism.
Believed by who?
The sinking of a boat doesn't equate to immersion into...and resurrection with, Jesus Christ.
I think you have already posted the meanings of baptizo which go along the lines of:
1. To dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge
2. To cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe (a one time event which could be repeated when needed - similar to water baptism)
3. To overwhelm (the continual plunging or immersion into something - much like Jesus said to immerse them into the name of, and also our continual immersion into Christ)
Close, but not exact.
Do you have access to a concordance?
There is no mention of any "repeated" action being necessary, as you infer.



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:09 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:49 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm
Acts 3:19 King James Version
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME from the presence of the Lord"

Isn't it interesting that Peter did not offer to water baptize the folks that he preached this message unto? Instead, he told them that they needed to get right so that their since might be blotted out when the Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence. This indicates that water baptism is not sufficient in and of itself to remit past sins. Else, Peter would have said, like he said elsewhere, "Repent, and be baptized... for the remission of sins."
He did offer/command baptism in verse 38 of the same chapter of Acts.
He did, but Acts 2:38 was at Pentecost and Acts 3 was not.

There is not an Acts 3:38. He did not offer to water baptize in Acts 3, but rather conditioned the blotting out of sins upon repentance, conversion, and the coming Times of Refreshing. This suggest that water baptism must be performed at the proper time, if sins are to be blotted out in conjunction with water baptism.


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

Image

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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:13 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:49 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm
Acts 3:19 King James Version
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN THE TIMES OF REFRESHING SHALL COME from the presence of the Lord"

Isn't it interesting that Peter did not offer to water baptize the folks that he preached this message unto? Instead, he told them that they needed to get right so that their since might be blotted out when the Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence. This indicates that water baptism is not sufficient in and of itself to remit past sins. Else, Peter would have said, like he said elsewhere, "Repent, and be baptized... for the remission of sins."

When are the Times of Refreshing? Given that Acts 2:38 was during Pentecost, are the Times of Refreshing set times according to God's calendar that He gave through Moses (such as Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles)? Or, are the Times of Refreshing as the Lord wills?

Water baptizing at random times and expecting remission of sins might not have as much scriptural merit as some think if not performed in conjunction with the Times of Refreshing.

Thoughts/Questions/Comments?
Image
Does it matter?
As some refuse the very idea of water baptism, when and where it is done is a moot point.

The "presence of the Lord" happens at the reception of the Holy Ghost...procured by repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38)
Another idea is that "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20)
Wouldn't that encompass a baptizer and a repentant man?
If a baptizer and a repentant man fulfilled the requirements, Peter would not have spoken of future Times of Refreshing in Acts 3. To do so instead of baptizing, then and there, shows that Peter did not practice water baptism just because there might be converts present. Instead, he told them that there sins would be blotted out in the future if they repented and were converted when the next Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence.


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

Image

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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:50 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:09 pm
He did, but Acts 2:38 was at Pentecost and Acts 3 was not.
You're right...I got my chapters mixed up.
If I tell a man to go to the hospital, do I also need to tell him to see a doctor for treatment?
The people needed to hear step one before they heard steps two and three.
He did not offer to water baptize in Acts 3, but rather conditioned the blotting out of sins upon repentance, conversion, and the coming Times of Refreshing.
This suggest that water baptism must be performed at the proper time, if sins are to be blotted out in conjunction with water baptism.
I can't agree.
Was Jesus baptized at a certain time? Or the Ethiopian? Or anyone else?
Why not just adhere to Peter's words in Acts 2:38...Turn from sins, get washed of past sins, and receive the gift of Holy Ghost?



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:07 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:13 pm
If a baptizer and a repentant man fulfilled the requirements, Peter would not have spoken of future Times of Refreshing in Acts 3. To do so instead of baptizing, then and there, shows that Peter did not practice water baptism just because there might be converts present. Instead, he told them that there sins would be blotted out in the future if they repented and were converted when the next Times of Refreshing came from the Lord's presence.
What if they died before the "times"?
To imagine that there are seasonal variations in the love of God is ludicrous.

This topic, "the times of the Lord", might be a good "new thread".
Verse 20"s "shall send Jesus Christ" sounds like a future event, but He had already been sent.
Unless Peter is referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit...which is the Spirit of Jesus Christ/Father...they are all One.
That gift had yet to be given to the unrepentant-unwashed, so was still in their future.



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