Dake Bible Discussion BoardGreen or Orange?

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:15 pm

luchnia wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:43 am
I'll stick with the immersion into Christ and His work and the confidence I have placed in Him for salvation.
An immersion without any immersing?
Meant to ask you this before, are there other forms and ordinances you and your group place on salvation as well as water baptism, or is water baptism the only requirement? I know reading about some groups that teach water baptism as a requirement for salvation place other requirements on salvation as well as water baptism.
Other requirements...besides baptism?
Yes:
1...Hearing the word of God.
2...Faith, belief in the word of God.
3...Belief that Christ was the Son of God and took on Himself the form of a man so He could suffer everything other men suffer and still remain faithful to God.
And by His death and resurrection show that having lived without sin, death could not hold Him.
And that by partaking in that death, burial, and resurrection with Christ we too can be reborn and continue in life with faith and obedience to God.
4...Repentance from sin.
5...Water baptism would be the fifth requirement, as per Peter in Acts 2:38.
Do these things and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That gift is manifested by the gift of tongues.



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luchnia
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:01 am

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:15 pm
An immersion without any immersing?

Other requirements...besides baptism?
Yes:
1...Hearing the word of God.
2...Faith, belief in the word of God.
3...Belief that Christ was the Son of God and took on Himself the form of a man so He could suffer everything other men suffer and still remain faithful to God.
And by His death and resurrection show that having lived without sin, death could not hold Him.
And that by partaking in that death, burial, and resurrection with Christ we too can be reborn and continue in life with faith and obedience to God.
4...Repentance from sin.
5...Water baptism would be the fifth requirement, as per Peter in Acts 2:38.
Do these things and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That gift is manifested by the gift of tongues.
No, the immersion into Christ is a full immersion without water. Of the three baptism it is the baptism "into" Christ done by the Spirit for saving. It is required for salvation not done with man's hands like water baptism. The immersion into and the coming out of water is water baptism. All the baptisms in God's word are different and carry different importance for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the response to the question. That makes sense, the only form/ordinance by the hands of man that you require is water baptism.


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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:44 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:01 am
No, the immersion into Christ is a full immersion without water.
That is self-contradictory.
Of the three baptism it is the baptism "into" Christ done by the Spirit for saving.
If you have Romans 6:3-6 in mind here, you have just "added to scripture", (as you have accused me of), by inferring it is a baptism done by the Spirit.
And how would that simulate burial. as per Romans 6:4-5?
It is required for salvation not done with man's hands like water baptism.
I guess obedience to God in any form would constitute salvation by our own hands.
To denigrate water baptism, and it's effects because men have a part in them, also denigrates "hearing" and "believing" the word preached to us BY MEN.
The immersion into and the coming out of water is water baptism.
It sure is, but we also are "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection at the same time. (Rom 6:3-5)
Thanks for the response to the question. That makes sense, the only form/ordinance by the hands of man that you require is water baptism.
Thank God for men with the Holy Ghost who can accomplish the love of God on earth.
Who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch?
Who baptized Cornelius?
Who baptized the Samaritans?
Who baptized the twelve at Ephesus?
Who baptized Gaius, Chrispus, and the household of Stephanas?
Men.

You have adopted a doctrine that substitutes water baptism with the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not realizing that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is an additional baptism made available to the repentant after Jesus was raised from the dead.
It doesn't cancel out John's baptism, which is now done in the name of Jesus Christ...for the remission of sins.



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:13 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:44 pm
Who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch?
Who baptized Cornelius?
Who baptized the Samaritans?
Who baptized the twelve at Ephesus?
Who baptized Gaius, Chrispus, and the household of Stephanas?
Men.
And, those men acted as God's agent in His Name. Therefore, when those men baptized those other persons, it was as if God, Himself, was baptizing them. This is the logical conclusion of the Christian's Power of Attorney as taught by Finis J. Dake. Although, I don't believe he took that teaching to its logical conclusion concerning water baptism.


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:43 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:13 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:44 pm
Who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch?
Who baptized Cornelius?
Who baptized the Samaritans?
Who baptized the twelve at Ephesus?
Who baptized Gaius, Chrispus, and the household of Stephanas?
Men.
And, those men acted as God's agent in His Name. Therefore, when those men baptized those other persons, it was as if God, Himself, was baptizing them. This is the logical conclusion of the Christian's Power of Attorney as taught by Finis J. Dake. Although, I don't believe he took that teaching to its logical conclusion concerning water baptism.
It seems to me that God wouldn't have an agent doing anything in His name that was unwarranted. Or worse, unnecessary.
So baptism in water for the remission of sins IS OF GOD.



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:35 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:43 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:13 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:44 pm
Who baptized the Ethiopian eunuch?
Who baptized Cornelius?
Who baptized the Samaritans?
Who baptized the twelve at Ephesus?
Who baptized Gaius, Chrispus, and the household of Stephanas?
Men.
And, those men acted as God's agent in His Name. Therefore, when those men baptized those other persons, it was as if God, Himself, was baptizing them. This is the logical conclusion of the Christian's Power of Attorney as taught by Finis J. Dake. Although, I don't believe he took that teaching to its logical conclusion concerning water baptism.
It seems to me that God wouldn't have an agent doing anything in His name that was unwarranted. Or worse, unnecessary.
So baptism in water for the remission of sins IS OF GOD.
I agree. Water Baptism for the remission of sins is of God.

Dake understood the term "for" to mean "because of."

In other words, he understood water baptism to be Believer's Baptism and reserved for those that had already had their sins remitted. They were to be baptized because of the remission of their sins.

Would you agree?


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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Hill Top
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:37 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:35 pm
I agree. Water Baptism for the remission of sins is of God.
Dake understood the term "for" to mean "because of."
In other words, he understood water baptism to be Believer's Baptism and reserved for those that had already had their sins remitted. They were to be baptized because of the remission of their sins.
Would you agree?
I guess you also consider the word "for" to mean "because of".
I don't agree.
BibleGateway.com lists the word(s) "because (of)" being used one hundred and seventy-four times in the NT.
To use the word "for" instead of "because of" seems to illustrate the order in which "remission of sins" is accomplished.
Baptism (in water), then remission of sins thereby.

In Acts 2:38, we read..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Nowhere does the scripture state the men Peter was talking to had already received anything.
The baptism was to receive remission of sins. And although water isn't specified, we know that the only other kind of baptism available to man was the baptism of the Holy Spirit...the gift from God that Peter referred to as a result of repentance from sin.



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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:23 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:37 am
I don't agree.
Thank you.


Acts 10:42-43 King James Version
"And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of Quick and Dead. To Him give all the Prophets witness, that through His Name WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS."

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luchnia
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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by luchnia » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:16 am

Glad water baptism is not TO remit past sins and that Jesus did not miss such an important thing in all of His teaching. The nice thing is that Jesus did not teach the mandate of water baptism. He had many opportunities to do so, but did not and that one point alone is vital. We know Jesus did not fail in what He taught. As with the prostitute and others all the way unto the end of God's word, He taught exactly what must be done to be saved from sin.

As with most ordinances men will bend them out of shape and turn them into bondage upon other men. Look at what happened in a lot of cases with the law. The law was good but what men did to it wasn't. I know a person that is so bent on the old law that he simply cannot see beyond it at all. To him, if you are not under the old law your are a heathen and bound for eternal torments no matter how much you trust God and place your faith in Christ. I also know a man that was under bondage of the old law and was set free from that bondage.

I know another guy (besides hilltop) that is bent on the water baptism thing as well. Such men try to put others under the same bondage and they simply cannot release it to grow in Christ. Sometimes it takes years to come out from under this type of bondage, and for others they never come out from under it.


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Re: Green or Orange?

Post by Hill Top » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:20 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:16 am
Glad water baptism is not TO remit past sins and that Jesus did not miss such an important thing in all of His teaching. The nice thing is that Jesus did not teach the mandate of water baptism. He had many opportunities to do so, but did not and that one point alone is vital. We know Jesus did not fail in what He taught. As with the prostitute and others all the way unto the end of God's word, He taught exactly what must be done to be saved from sin.
It is written..."Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Matthew 28:19)
Jesus is commanding others to baptize in His name.
That is as clear as it gets.
As with most ordinances men will bend them out of shape and turn them into bondage upon other men. Look at what happened in a lot of cases with the law. The law was good but what men did to it wasn't. I know a person that is so bent on the old law that he simply cannot see beyond it at all. To him, if you are not under the old law your are a heathen and bound for eternal torments no matter how much you trust God and place your faith in Christ. I also know a man that was under bondage of the old law and was set free from that bondage.

I know another guy (besides hilltop) that is bent on the water baptism thing as well. Such men try to put others under the same bondage and they simply cannot release it to grow in Christ. Sometimes it takes years to come out from under this type of bondage, and for others they never come out from under it.
Baptism is an "ordinance" of Jesus Christ, not man.
The "ordinance" you would have me submit to is a reversal of what Peter told the Jews on the day of Pentecost..."for the remission of sins". (Acts 2:38)

Again, I raise the question of the baptisms of the Samaritans, the Ethiopian, Cornelius, Crispus, Gaius, the house hold of Stephanas, and the twelve at Ephesus.
Were Philip, Peter, and Paul bringing anyone into bondage for baptizing them?

Condemn me, and you condemn Philip, Peter, and Paul.



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