Dake Bible Discussion BoardCHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:13 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:56 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:26 pm
I would say Paradise, then Heaven. The Lord seems to have still had a relationship with the child's mother, even though He had already cut off her husband and the rest of that house.
Do you think that paradise and heaven are different places?
I don't.
Dake did think that Paradise and Heaven were in different places prior to Christ's Ascension.

The idea is that because Jesus had not yet shed His blood and presented it in the True Holy of Holies in Heaven, no one who even died saved could go to Heaven at death. At best, they would go to Paradise, which was in Sheol which was divided into two sides, Paradise and Hell, where they were kept prisoner until Jesus released them.

I'm open to discussing whether or not Paradise was ever in the Lower Parts of the Earth, but I definitely tend to agree that it was there and that Paradise was not in Heaven until Jesus moved it there after presenting His Blood in the Heavenly Tabernacle.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Hill Top » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:40 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:13 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:56 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:26 pm
I would say Paradise, then Heaven. The Lord seems to have still had a relationship with the child's mother, even though He had already cut off her husband and the rest of that house.
Do you think that paradise and heaven are different places?
I don't.
Dake did think that Paradise and Heaven were in different places prior to Christ's Ascension.

The idea is that because Jesus had not yet shed His blood and presented it in the True Holy of Holies in Heaven, no one who even died saved could go to Heaven at death. At best, they would go to Paradise, which was in Sheol which was divided into two sides, Paradise and Hell, where they were kept prisoner until Jesus released them.

I'm open to discussing whether or not Paradise was ever in the Lower Parts of the Earth, but I definitely tend to agree that it was there and that Paradise was not in Heaven until Jesus moved it there after presenting His Blood in the Heavenly Tabernacle.
Did rev. Dake supply some scriptures on which he based this?
Especially concerning Jesus moving Paradise, or those who were there?



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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:07 am

Hill Top wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:40 pm
Did rev. Dake supply some scriptures on which he based this?
Especially concerning Jesus moving Paradise, or those who were there?
Yes, he did.

Do you have any of Dake's material, yet?


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by luchnia » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:41 pm

bibleman wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:54 pm
OK guys here is something you can chew on!

Jeroboam was a wicked king.

1 Kings 14:7-11 (NKJV) 7 Go, tell Jeroboam, 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "Because I exalted you from among the people, and made you ruler over My people Israel,
8 and tore the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it to you; and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart, to do only what was right in My eyes;
9 but you have done more evil than all who were before you, for you have gone and made for yourself other gods and molded images to provoke Me to anger, and have cast Me behind your back--
10 therefore behold! I will bring disaster on the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam every male in Israel, bond and free; I will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as one takes away refuse until it is all gone.
11 The dogs shall eat whoever belongs to Jeroboam and dies in the city, and the birds of the air shall eat whoever dies in the field; for the LORD has spoken!" '


The Lord said his son would die BUT his son would be buried where all others of Jeroboam's house would not be buried but be eaten by the birds and the dogs.

The prophet told the child's mother:

1 Kings 14:12-13 (NKJV) 12 Arise therefore, go to your own house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die.
13 And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.


And so it was:

1 Kings 14:17-18 (NKJV) 17 Then Jeroboam's wife arose and departed, and came to Tirzah. When she came to the threshold of the house, the child died.
18 And they buried him; and all Israel mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke through His servant Ahijah the prophet.


So based on the story did the child who died go to Heaven?
There are a number of questions that could be asked. What was it that was found good toward the Lord and was known at the time before his death, or was it something God knew by foreknowledge? I wonder how old the child was before he died? Interesting too that when her feet entered the city the child died.

Just think Jereboam did more evil that all who were before him provoking God to anger.
9 but you have done more evil than all who were before you, for you have gone and made for yourself other gods and molded images to provoke Me to anger, and have cast Me behind your back--


Word up!

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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Hill Top » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:13 pm
Dake did think that Paradise and Heaven were in different places prior to Christ's Ascension.

The idea is that because Jesus had not yet shed His blood and presented it in the True Holy of Holies in Heaven, no one who even died saved could go to Heaven at death. At best, they would go to Paradise, which was in Sheol which was divided into two sides, Paradise and Hell, where they were kept prisoner until Jesus released them.

I'm open to discussing whether or not Paradise was ever in the Lower Parts of the Earth, but I definitely tend to agree that it was there and that Paradise was not in Heaven until Jesus moved it there after presenting His Blood in the Heavenly Tabernacle.
It seems rev. Dake took the Lazarus parable, (Luke 16), to some extreme.
He must have thought Jesus was talking about a real place.
In Rev 5:24, we see..."And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God TOOK him."
As God would be in heaven, the scrip' would need to say..."...for God SENT him" , if paradise and heaven were different places.

Besides, men of the OT could be made clean by adhering to the Mosaic Law; paying the penalties for sin with bulls and goats, etc.
What need was there that they should be made to wait for a second "paradise"?



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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:05 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm
Besides, men of the OT could be made clean by adhering to the Mosaic Law; paying the penalties for sin with bulls and goats, etc.
No. They could not. If adhering to the Mosaic Law could have accomplished that, then Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection was unnecessary.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:13 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm
It seems rev. Dake took the Lazarus parable, (Luke 16), to some extreme.
He must have thought Jesus was talking about a real place.
Dake did, indeed, consider that Jesus spoke of real people when He spoke of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Dake took it as no parable, but as actual events that happened in actual places.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

User avatar
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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:15 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm
In Rev 5:24, we see..."And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God TOOK him."
As God would be in heaven, the scrip' would need to say..."...for God SENT him" , if paradise and heaven were different places.
That's not what Revelation 5:24 says in my Bible. There is no Revelation 5:24.

Adding to the book of Revelation is said to be quite dangerous.

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Is adding to the book of Revelation a forgivable sin?


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:21 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm
In Rev 5:24, we see..."And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God TOOK him."
As God would be in heaven, the scrip' would need to say..."...for God SENT him" , if paradise and heaven were different places.
I believe you meant Genesis 5:24:

Genesis 5:24 King James Version
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Enoch did not die. Therefore, Enoch did not become the prisoner of him that had the power of death whom Jesus destroyed: the devil. Paradise was held in captivity by the devil.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hill Top
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Re: CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT AND GO TO HEAVEN IF THEY DIE.

Post by Hill Top » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:36 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:05 pm
Hill Top wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:02 pm
Besides, men of the OT could be made clean by adhering to the Mosaic Law; paying the penalties for sin with bulls and goats, etc.
No. They could not. If adhering to the Mosaic Law could have accomplished that, then Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection was unnecessary.
If you are correct, then the Day of Atonement and every other sacrificial rite was a waste of time.
They could be made clean under the Law, but as men of the flesh they could not be freed from sin.
They needed to keep coming back every year with more sacrifices for their new sins, while we have been freed from sin and need no further atonements.
Without the Law's atonements, none of the OT people would ever be counted worthy of eternal life.



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