Dake Bible Discussion BoardChange My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

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Hill Top
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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:53 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:03 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:50 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:15 am
We talk about babies, but what about a young child? How old does one need to be in order to be accountable - 2, 4, 6, 8? Remember there was a king that was 7 years old. I don't remember the scripture at the moment, but an amazing story of what happened.
Well... A thought comes to mind... The reason that a group of foot soldiers is called an infantry is because that used to be the job of the children during war.

That said, if there is an age of accountability, and I think that there is for clean children, it probably isn't very old. Folks used to be considered adults a lot younger than they are, today.
Having raised some kids, there is definitely a difference in age based on the individual when they become accountable. At least in my opinion it is. I may not understand it exactly, yet it seems there is a place in a person's spirit that comes to a knowledge deep inside and even thinking back on my childhood, I think I remember a time that I knew I was accountable to something higher than me. For me, though I was much older. When i was young, I had no clue up from down much less accountability to anything.

Children must have been different in days of old, because today I cannot imagine a kid having enough sense to do anything at 7 years old, much less ruling a kingdom. Some of these kids today are dumber than rocks, but then look how they are trained up. They are not taught anything but to be a couch sponge.

Thinking about infantry, here is a situation to consider that happens all the time. Say a militia group takes a very young child and feeds them and trains them to fight for an evil cause and this child becomes a killer because of their training. What happens to that child when it is killed as it has been brainwashed into a killing machine? They merely do what their teachers taught them and don't know right from wrong.

There are cases of extremely young children as young as 4 or 5 years old being taught to give soldiers small lunch bags and then the bag will explode and kill the soldier when he opens it. Is this a case of woe to the one by which the sin came?
No murderer has eternal life (1st John 3:1).
Consider there is a difference between one who kills by order verses one who murders. Sometimes in scripture the words are challenging to understand, yet you can figure it out. Solders kill and had different commands given them, but a murdered is a different animal.

A murderer is not approved as righteous, yet the act of killing as we see from God is righteous. This is another misunderstood area of scripture and probably needs its own thread for discussion. Also it greatly helps in understanding God's justice in this light.
No man who kills another man loves his neighbor as he loves himself.



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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:00 pm

bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 pm
Let's approach this from another direction...

Say you make a rule that "everybody that comes to your restaurant MUST walk through the front door to come in."

OK fine...

One day however someone comes through the front door... but they were just in a car accident and they were in a wheel chair when they came in. They did NOT walk through the front door, but rolled through in a wheel chair.

Since they are not capable of walking.... Do you still let them come into your restaurant?


Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:22 pm
I wouldn't make such a rule.

But, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that a restaurant owner did make that rule and that they did not permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

And, for the sake of exploring your logic, let's suppose that another restaurant owner did make that rule, but despite that rule, they did permit the person in the wheelchair to enter the restaurant.

Either way, the owner of the restaurant is right. It's his or her restaurant. In one case, the owner follows his or her own law. In the other case, the owner reveals that he or she can make exceptions to the rule based on the fact that he owns the restaurant. The owner may or may not permit exceptions to the rule according to his wishes.


bibleman wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 pm
The question then becomes is the heart of a restaurant owner "just" ...in the refusal to grant a wheel chair bound person entrance into his restaurant?

I would answer NO. The person in the wheel chair is incapable of waling so to require a person to do what a person cannot do is not just.

So I appeal to the logic and reason of Abraham: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen 18:25

Is it right to send children... who are incapable of understanding righteousness and sin and the reward and punishment for both... to Hell. I think not and would not expect the Lord of all the earth to do that.

The same would hold true for the mentally retarded who are incapable of making logical, reasonable and rational thought.



Would the restaurant owner be "just" if he refused entrance to the wheel-chair bound person? In my view, absolutely. Just, but not necessarily merciful.

Regarding Abraham's question from Genesis 18:25... I don't doubt that there were children in Sodom that the angels did not evacuate prior to incinerating Sodom or the other cities of the plain.

As to the "mentally retarded who are incapable of making logical, reasonable and rational thought..." God is perfectly able to heal them and ensure that they are able to make a rational decision if He wants to... Just as He knew exactly what it would've taken to convert Sodom and had the ability to bring to pass, but chose not to.

I do agree that God can and does show mercy to whomever He wants. But, that does not mean that those He shows mercy to do not deserve Hell. On the contrary, the fact that they deserve Hell allows Him to show mercy.

The fact that the Judge of All the Earth will do right should scare people.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:07 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:55 pm
Are you equating "unclean" with "sinful"?
Isn't it true that no man will be judged for the sins of another?
Yes, being unclean is sinful.

I do not hold that babies are inherently free from sin or that they did not sin. I hold that babies can be made free from sin by God's grace.

I have shown that people are responsible for the actions that they took even before their conception. And, the Bible is clear that all are condemned based upon what Adam did (or rather, what they did in Adam).


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:12 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:24 am
Could it be that the innocent young, their salvation, that they are innocent up to accountability, and that is entirely based on Jesus' faith and work alone, "their angels behold the face of our Father"? In this context I am not referring to any of the children of the giant races that have no resurrection. There is probably much more to it, yet just throwing out some additional discussion points.
If it were true "that the innocent young, their salvation, that they are innocent up to accountability, and that is entirely based on Jesus' faith and work alone," I do not believe that Paul would have called the children of two unbelieving parents "unclean." Surely, Paul would not have called what Jesus had cleansed "unclean."


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:20 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:53 pm
No man who kills another man loves his neighbor as he loves himself.
Jesus killed a woman's children.

Revelation 2:23 King James Version
"And I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

This has already happened.

He still answers the Psalms 58 prayer because His mercy endures for ever.

Do you rejoice when you see His vengeance?

May His will be done on Earth as in Heaven.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hill Top
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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:01 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:07 pm
Yes, being unclean is sinful.
I agree, but see no place in scripture where babies are automatically condemned just for existing.
I do not hold that babies are inherently free from sin or that they did not sin.
Why not?
I hold that babies can be made free from sin by God's grace.
Is that an automatic gesture by God for all babies...who have never committed a sin?
I have shown that people are responsible for the actions that they took even before their conception. And, the Bible is clear that all are condemned based upon what Adam did (or rather, what they did in Adam).
Then you are positing that men will pay for the sins of another; in this case, a distant forefather.
BTW, we are not "condemned" because we are of Adam, only that a death is in our future.
It is written..."For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor 15:21-22)
Babies are, like all of us, destined to die, but their destruction or eternal life is determined by their actions alone.
Dying is quite a different thing than having one's name erased from the book of life.

It is written..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Rom 5:13)
Can a baby be guilty of something it cannot understand?



Hill Top
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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Hill Top » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:14 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:20 pm
Jesus killed a woman's children.
Revelation 2:23 King James Version
"And I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN with death; and all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
This has already happened.

Dying is quite different than being judged unworthy of eternal life.
Paul "died".
Is he damned?
As he will be judged for his "works", if he does no bad works he will be found in the book of life.
I'm sure this also applies to babies.

He still answers the Psalms 58 prayer because His mercy endures for ever.
Do you rejoice when you see His vengeance?
May His will be done on Earth as in Heaven.

I don't rejoice when a man "runs out of time" to repent of wickedness.



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branham1965
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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by branham1965 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:33 am

Look in the various Study Bibles on Revelation 2

Dr.MacArthur handles theses verses well.



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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:33 am

branham1965 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:33 am
Look in the various Study Bibles on Revelation 2

Dr.MacArthur handles theses verses well.
Dr. MacArthur is a full-fledged Calvinist who believes that God creates some people for Heaven and some for Hell and that that destiny is fixed and unchangeable. He does believe that all babies that die without reaching the age of accountability were predestined for Heaven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMmjLC-VoXI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMmjLC-VoXI


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Re: Change My Mind: Some Babies Go to Hell When They Die

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:10 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:01 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:07 pm
Yes, being unclean is sinful.
I agree, but see no place in scripture where babies are automatically condemned just for existing.
I'm not saying that I see any "place in scripture where babies are automatically condemned just for existing." I'm saying that they are condemned for sin they committed before being conceived, when they were in Adam and possibly along the way from Adam to their conception.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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