Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ 3 Days

[Hill Top]

"It would be a manifestation of a lack of faith in what has happened at baptism..." — Hill Top.

What happened at baptism if the repentance was false?

Someone went through the process without without believing what is accomplished at water baptism.

Does "lack of faith" prevent the water from being the Blood?

No, it can't change what the water really is...the blood of Christ.
Lack of faith will cancel what was supposed to happen. ie, the death, and burial of the old man, and resurrection with Christ of a new man.
It will cancel the circumcision of the flesh, and our insertion into Christ.

What about "false repentance"?

Nothing can change what God has ordained, only how it affects you.

Can you see why I think that in your theology, if a person sinned even once since they were water baptized, then it must not have been a real water baptism in that person's case?

Let's look at the effects of a "real" baptism.
Remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38, Rom 3:25)
Insertion into Christ, (wherein is no sin). (Rom 6:3)
Insertion into Christ's death and burial, and our partaking in the resurrection of Christ "to walk in newness of life"...rebirth. (Rom 6:4)
The circumcision of the flesh... (Col 2:11-13)
...with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Freedom from sin. (Rom 6:7)
Any sin would betray the non-repentant as a man still in the flesh who was not reborn of God's seed. (1 John 3:8)
The baptism was real, but the baptized didn't benefit from it.

[luchnia]

Let's look at the effects of a "real" baptism.

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

[Hill Top]

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Yes I do, as it is the only baptism we can initiate/accomplish.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God, at His discretion..

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

So?
What has the opinion of three people got to do with my post?
Isn't the communion wine the blood of Christ by faith?
Well so are the waters of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Why should faith only work in one situation?

[luchnia]

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Yes I do, as it is the only baptism we can initiate/accomplish.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God, at His discretion..

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

So?
What has the opinion of three people got to do with my post?
Isn't the communion wine the blood of Christ by faith?
Well so are the waters of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Why should faith only work in one situation?

So, by faith, the baptism in water is a baptism in water. The baptism in Christ is a baptism in Christ. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. One is in water, one is in Christ, and one is in the Holy Spirit.

Water is specified in the first, but not specified in the later two. Certainly you will imply and maintain that water is meant in one of the later two. As long as you add water to verses where water is not specified there will be complications - e.g to the baptism in Christ (the only baptism that saves the soul performed by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:13, Mt 3:11, Jn 1:31-33, etc.).

So, for you in your walk and by your understanding water for immersion will be required where it is not specified. For the rest, by fatih they will accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

[Hill Top]

So, by faith, the baptism in water is a baptism in water. The baptism in Christ is a baptism in Christ. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. One is in water, one is in Christ, and one is in the Holy Spirit.

The baptism WITH water is, by faith, baptism into Christ, into His death burial and resurrection, and the circumcision done without hands in casting off the flesh (with the affections and lusts).
Water baptism is our "immersion" into Christ.

Can you show me where you found a "baptism in Christ"?

Water is specified in the first, but not specified in the later two. Certainly you will imply and maintain that water is meant in one of the later two. As long as you add water to verses where water is not specified there will be complications - e.g to the baptism in Christ (the only baptism that saves the soul performed by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:13, Mt 3:11, Jn 1:31-33, etc.).

In response to 1 Cor 12:13..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
The water, Spirit, and blood are one.

In response to Matt 3:11...I see no indication that water baptism for repentance from sin is abolished, nor do I understand how Jesus' baptism with the Holy Ghost can be accomplished by us.
It is His doing; His gift to those whose turn from sin is real.
We play no part, but a true repentance from sin, in this baptism.

In response to John 1:31-33...Again you are supplanting water baptism with Holy Spirit baptism.
That is an error.
Men are to be water baptized first, then Jesus does the baptizing with the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
"Get baptized for the remission of sins THEN God will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
They are sequential events.

So, for you in your walk and by your understanding water for immersion will be required where it is not specified. For the rest, by fatih they will accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

It is written..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)
Was water mentioned there?
Was baptism mentioned there?
No they weren't, but it is understood that water baptism was the means of remission of sins then.
So it is now.

BTW, water was "specified" for the Ethiopian eunuch's baptism by Philip.
In fact, a man-performed baptism was also "specified" for the twelve at Ephesus, Paul, the Samaritans, and Cornelius too.
Didn't they "by faith accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ"?
I say YES, they did.

[TruthSeeker]

If you have a look at Dake's chart you will see that Dake has Jesus going into the paradise part of hell.
So it seems to me that Dake did not believe Jesus had to suffer torment in hell like some teach.

Thanks Ironman and macca. That was helpful. I have been taught that Jesus had to suffer torment in hell so that we do not have to.

Yes the idea that Jesus died and went to suffer torment in Hell for 3 days and nights, is widely taught in the Word of Faith Camp of which I am a part.

EW Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and a number of others teach it consistently in their tapes, cds and books. I love them all and have received so much from their teaching, but that is one teaching I just cannot find Scriptural support for.

Still pondering what happened those 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was in such torment in the garden that he sweat drops of blood. I do not believe he feared physical death for he said in Luke 12:4 not to be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. And He certainly didn't fear going to paradise. He either was in such torment about taking the sin of the world upon Himself on the cross or going to the place of wicked spirits separated from his Father.

[bibleman]

If you have a look at Dake's chart you will see that Dake has Jesus going into the paradise part of hell.
So it seems to me that Dake did not believe Jesus had to suffer torment in hell like some teach.

Thanks Ironman and macca. That was helpful. I have been taught that Jesus had to suffer torment in hell so that we do not have to.

Yes the idea that Jesus died and went to suffer torment in Hell for 3 days and nights, is widely taught in the Word of Faith Camp of which I am a part.

EW Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and a number of others teach it consistently in their tapes, cds and books. I love them all and have received so much from their teaching, but that is one teaching I just cannot find Scriptural support for.

Still pondering what happened those 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was in such torment in the garden that he sweat drops of blood. I do not believe he feared physical death for he said in Luke 12:4 not to be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. And He certainly didn't fear going to paradise. He either was in such torment about taking the sin of the world upon Himself on the cross or going to the place of wicked spirits separated from his Father.

Dake believed the devil was trying to kill him to keep him from going to the cross.

[luchnia]

If you have a look at Dake's chart you will see that Dake has Jesus going into the paradise part of hell.
So it seems to me that Dake did not believe Jesus had to suffer torment in hell like some teach.

Thanks Ironman and macca. That was helpful. I have been taught that Jesus had to suffer torment in hell so that we do not have to.

Yes the idea that Jesus died and went to suffer torment in Hell for 3 days and nights, is widely taught in the Word of Faith Camp of which I am a part.

EW Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and a number of others teach it consistently in their tapes, cds and books. I love them all and have received so much from their teaching, but that is one teaching I just cannot find Scriptural support for.

Still pondering what happened those 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was in such torment in the garden that he sweat drops of blood. I do not believe he feared physical death for he said in Luke 12:4 not to be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. And He certainly didn't fear going to paradise. He either was in such torment about taking the sin of the world upon Himself on the cross or going to the place of wicked spirits separated from his Father.

Dake believed the devil was trying to kill him to keep him from going to the cross.

When you look at Dake's charts, it appears that he was on to something with this. Even from the beginning we see this constant vigil of the evil one to destroy the seed of God and thwart God's plan. It happened time and time again and each time God made provision to keep His plan on course.

I often wonder why Lucifer once he had fallen, believed that he could overthrow the throne of God. It would seem such a foolish thing to attempt, yet he still went after it. I suppose at his seat in the hierarchy there is much that we simply cannot fathom and to think that a created being could be "perfect" as he was before he fell is a hard concept to grasp. One thing is for sure, we know that his fall created his journey to his ultimate end.

[Hill Top]

I often wonder why Lucifer once he had fallen, believed that he could overthrow the throne of God. It would seem such a foolish thing to attempt, yet he still went after it. I suppose at his seat in the hierarchy there is much that we simply cannot fathom and to think that a created being could be "perfect" as he was before he fell is a hard concept to grasp. One thing is for sure, we know that his fall created his journey to his ultimate end.

The devil want to take as many people away from God and to destruction as he possibly can.
That is his only mission now.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

I often wonder why Lucifer once he had fallen, believed that he could overthrow the throne of God. It would seem such a foolish thing to attempt, yet he still went after it.

I would imagine that angels, just like people, can be given over to a reprobate mind by God; similar to how God hardened Pharaoh's heart in response to Pharaoh's. It could be that Lucifer no longer truly has a free will. Instead, he's locked in to his course of action. He thinks he's free to choose, but his seeming ability to choose is an illusion.