Dake Bible Discussion BoardThe failure of holding fast.

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luchnia
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:57 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:56 pm
I'm not going to answer any more of your questions till you start answering mine.
Hill Top wrote: How do those who don't believe in water baptism's efficacy believe their old man is killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life?
Read Romans 6:1-14 on how to be alive to God by the death of the old man and raising of the new man which does not involve water. Jesus was not baptized at His death. We were buried with him by baptism INTO death not water. In other words we died, put the old man away, and now walk in newness of life.
Hill Top wrote: How do they think the blood of Christ is applied to them for there sanctification and justification?
Read Hebrews 10:1-18 to see how by His offering we are sanctified. Also read Romans 5:1-18 for justification through His blood. Neither have anything to do with water baptism.
Hill Top wrote: What do they say when it turns out they are still committing sin when they thought "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"?
This question is somewhat unrelated and I really don't know what they say about it, but if anyone is still committing sin and think they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, they are lying to and deceiving themselves.

My guess is they do that to attempt to justify sin as if to be blameless. You and I both know that one in Christ, has crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts and are not in sin. We also know that one in sin, serves sin.


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Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:56 pm

luchnia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:57 pm
Read Romans 6:1-14 on how to be alive to God by the death of the old man and raising of the new man which does not involve water. Jesus was not baptized at His death. We were buried with him by baptism INTO death not water. In other words we died, put the old man away, and now walk in newness of life.
I don't know how you can read the scripture but deny the baptism is in-with water.?
"Baptizo"...immersed into or fully whelmed : Strong's Concordance.
What were you immersed into- with?
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 12:12)
I was immersed into Christ, and into His death, burial, and resurrection by my baptism into Christ, into His death, burial, and resurrection.
That baptism put me on the cross, in the grave, and at the resurrection of Christ to walk in newness of life.
We were, and are, together as one.
His blood was on me as I was in Him.
Hill Top wrote: How do they think the blood of Christ is applied to them for there sanctification and justification?
Read Hebrews 10:1-18 to see how by His offering we are sanctified. Also read Romans 5:1-18 for justification through His blood. Neither have anything to do with water baptism.
His blood does the sanctifying, and it is applied to us as we partake in the crucifixion of the Christ...when we are "immersed" into Jesus by our water baptism.
Hill Top wrote: What do they say when it turns out they are still committing sin when they thought "they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts"?
This question is somewhat unrelated...
It is only unrelated if you don't realize we were actually crucified with Christ...at our water baptism.
and I really don't know what they say about it, but if anyone is still committing sin and think they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, they are lying to and deceiving themselves.
My guess is they do that to attempt to justify sin as if to be blameless. You and I both know that one in Christ, has crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts and are not in sin. We also know that one in sin, serves sin.
Fact is, that they didn't have faith to believe that their old man was actually killed with Christ when they were baptized into Christ's death.
Without killing the old person, a new one can't exist.
Without water baptism a man can't be reborn of God's seed to be able to remain sinless.



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luchnia
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:01 am

Hill Top wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:56 pm
luchnia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:57 pm
Read Romans 6:1-14 on how to be alive to God by the death of the old man and raising of the new man which does not involve water. Jesus was not baptized at His death. We were buried with him by baptism INTO death not water. In other words we died, put the old man away, and now walk in newness of life.
I don't know how you can read the scripture but deny the baptism is in-with water.?
It is really super simple. I don't add water to a word that has nothing to do with water, unless the context specifically is implying water, and you do. This is the primary differentiator between our views on this subject. It is your right to perceive it as you wish and mine likewise.

The immersion is into the object one is being immersed into. Example: If you are immersed into death and immersed into being raising from death, water has no part in this at all. Baptism in water can be a symbol of the actual event, but so can a number of items one could be immersed into. The new birth, being raised to life, is not something that can be touched with hands. Water cannot remit sins.

If one could remit sins by water, that would not take belief of the heart, but a simple action of the flesh. One would simply go and be immersed in water and have your sins remitted. Piece of cake really. On the other hand, believing from the heart is no piece of cake as that requires the whole man starting at the inside and working out.

This "remission" happens on the inside, the spirit of man, or the "midst" of man. Man puts away the old and puts on the new. He flees those things. He departs from iniquity. He walks in the Spirit and does not fulfill the lust of the flesh. He mortifies the deeds of the body. He crucifies the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Remember, Jesus was not water baptized at His death, so how can you "in like manner" be baptized into His death if you use water for immersion INTO His death? Your water immersion would be INTO water and not into death. Again, you would be immersed into water and not death. Would you not want to do what is commanded of you?

Here is another simple example. Let's say you are being baptized into God's word. You will immerse yourself into His Word. How would water be used in that example? Would you simply be baptized in water and just say, "I am baptized in God's word because of water"?

To baptize is to immerse and baptism is immersion, correct? So when you were water baptized, you were immersed into water and nothing more. If you were a past sinner, you still carry those sins because the water was powerless to remit them. What will you do to be freed from your pass sins? Will you believe in your heart that HE FREED you by His sacrifice, or just stick with the element of water as the remitter?


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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:25 pm

luchnia wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:01 am
It is really super simple. I don't add water to a word that has nothing to do with water, unless the context specifically is implying water, and you do. This is the primary differentiator between our views on this subject. It is your right to perceive it as you wish and mine likewise.
Correlate your belief with the Ethiopian eunuch. He was baptized in water.
And with Cornelius. Why would Peter suggest baptizing them "again" if your belief were true and sufficient?
The immersion is into the object one is being immersed into.
How were you immersed into "the object"...Christ's death burial and resurrection?
Did you just say "I did it of my own power, it's over"?
Example: If you are immersed into death and immersed into being raising from death, water has no part in this at all.
Except I was immersed into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrected with Him by...as scripture states...baptism.
You are advocating baptism without being baptized.
Baptism in water can be a symbol of the actual event, but so can a number of items one could be immersed into. The new birth, being raised to life, is not something that can be touched with hands.
Can you touch grace, or love, or the blood of Christ?
I don't need to touch the to profit from them.
To you, baptismal water is just water.
To me, it is the blood of Christ.
It is the grave Jesus was buried in.
It is the tomb Jesus was raised from, and I do the same because my immersion has allowed me to be in Him there at that time.
Water cannot remit sins.
No it doesn't.
Thankfully, God has seen fit to use it as the blood of Christ.
There are three that bear witness on earth...the water, the blood, and the Spirit. And these three agree in one. (1 John 5:8)
If one could remit sins by water, that would not take belief of the heart, but a simple action of the flesh.
Actually, it is baptism in water, not just water, that remits sin.
And that "belief of the heart" is called faith.
One would simply go and be immersed in water and have your sins remitted. Piece of cake really.
That is what Peter commanded the visiting Jews. and us, to do.
It was what Ananias told Paul to do.
It is what the Ethiopian eunuch desired to do.
It is what the twelve at Ephesus chose to do.
It is what Peter commanded that Cornelius was to do.
And it happened to Lydia, and the Philippian jailer, and to the 3000 on the day of Pentecost.
It happened to the household of Stephanas, Crispus and Gaius...done by by Paul.
On the other hand, believing from the heart is no piece of cake as that requires the whole man starting at the inside and working out.
If it was so easy why don't you believe it?
This "remission" happens on the inside, the spirit of man, or the "midst" of man. Man puts away the old and puts on the new. He flees those things. He departs from iniquity. He walks in the Spirit and does not fulfill the lust of the flesh. He mortifies the deeds of the body. He crucifies the flesh with the affections and lusts.
So man can do everything...except get baptized in water?
Remember, Jesus was not water baptized at His death, so how can you "in like manner" be baptized into His death if you use water for immersion INTO His death? Your water immersion would be INTO water and not into death. Again, you would be immersed into water and not death. Would you not want to do what is commanded of you?
Why would Jesus be baptized at His death?
He was actually experiencing it.
We are afforded the same death, burial, and resurrection by our "immersion" into Christ...by our baptism, as commanded by Peter in Acts 2:38.
Here is another simple example. Let's say you are being baptized into God's word. You will immerse yourself into His Word. How would water be used in that example? Would you simply be baptized in water and just say, "I am baptized in God's word because of water"?
If scripture told me to do that I would.
If scripture didn't tell me how to be "immersed" into the word i would do as you did.
I would just say "I did it, it's done".
My power allowed me to be in the word...hooray for me!
Isn't that the "say it and claim it" doctrine?
To baptize is to immerse and baptism is immersion, correct?
Correct.
So when you were water baptized, you were immersed into water and nothing more.
No, I was immersed into Jesus Christ and into His death, burial, and was raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
Just as Rom 6;3-6 makes clear.
If you were a past sinner, you still carry those sins because the water was powerless to remit them.
Thank God it was the blood of Christ that washed away my sins, as the water was one with the Spirit and the blood. (1 John 5:8)
BTW, John the baptist used water for his baptism unto repentance, and that remitted sins.
It is written..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)
It is written..."And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" (Luke 3:3)
What will you do to be freed from your pass sins? Will you believe in your heart that HE FREED you by His sacrifice, or just stick with the element of water as the remitter?
As Romans 6:7 states, the effect of water baptism is... "For he that is dead is freed from sin".
I can tell it was effective because I don't commit sin anymore !

Do you make the same claim?

It is written..."Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:12-13)



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luchnia
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:01 am

Hill Top wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:25 pm
Correlate your belief with the Ethiopian eunuch. He was baptized in water.
So the eunuch was not saved from his sins before his water baptism? Interesting...
Acts 8:34-37 (KJV)
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
It would seem that from verse 37, the eunuch believed BEFORE he was water baptized. Poor guy just did not get it, I suppose.

While we are on this subject, why did Philip immerse himself again? Did he need a "second" remissions of sins by being immersed again? Acts 8:38 (KJV)
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Maybe Philip missed his first go 'round and was not remitted of sins, yet interesting that one that has not had their sins remitted could water baptize another in such a manner as Philip did! WOW! I wonder how many took a second dip because the first one was not adequate to remit sins! Maybe Philip lacked belief?


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Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:39 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:01 am
So the eunuch was not saved from his sins before his water baptism? Interesting...
Acts 8:34-37 (KJV)
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
It would seem that from verse 37, the eunuch believed BEFORE he was water baptized. Poor guy just did not get it, I suppose.
Do you suppose God would allow someone to perish in the two minutes it would take to get to the water?
I don't.
While we are on this subject, why did Philip immerse himself again? Did he need a "second" remissions of sins by being immersed again? Acts 8:38 (KJV)
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Philip wasn't baptizing himself, or again,
Personally, I have never gotten wet above the belt while baptizing someone else.
But I did need to be in the water.

As Romans 6:7 states, the effect of water baptism is... "For he that is dead is freed from sin".
I can tell it was effective because I don't commit sin anymore !
Do you make the same claim about your baptism without water?



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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by luchnia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:38 am

Hill Top wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:39 pm
Do you suppose God would allow someone to perish in the two minutes it would take to get to the water?
I don't.

As Romans 6:7 states, the effect of water baptism is... "For he that is dead is freed from sin".
I can tell it was effective because I don't commit sin anymore !
Do you make the same claim about your baptism without water?
Thank you for making the point of what we have been claiming all along! You are correct, God would not allow a believing man to perish because a believer is FREE from sin and alive to Christ.

Consider what you have stated about even 2 minutes to get to water and ponder that for a while. Even if the believer did NOT get to water for whatever reason (because some do not make it to water), he is free in Christ because the believer is baptized into Christ, death burial and resurrection!

This does not mean that any man should be forbid water. None should be forbid water if they so request and desire as the eunuch did, but if they do not make water then that will not eliminate the work that Christ did for the believer.

BTW, Romans 6:7 does not give the effect of water baptism on the believer and water is not even specified in Romans 6:7 as the substance of baptism. So adding water is assumption and conjecture, plain and simple. If it is not taught there, why add it?

Ask yourself what is your gain in adding something to the text that does not exist there? What will be the outcome by doing that?


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Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:18 pm

luchnia wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:38 am
Thank you for making the point of what we have been claiming all along! You are correct, God would not allow a believing man to perish because a believer is FREE from sin and alive to Christ.
You forgot something...Jesus said..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;..." (Mark 16:16)
Consider what you have stated about even 2 minutes to get to water and ponder that for a while. Even if the believer did NOT get to water for whatever reason (because some do not make it to water), he is free in Christ because the believer is baptized into Christ, death burial and resurrection!
He is't "baptized into Christ" without baptism.
This does not mean that any man should be forbid water. None should be forbid water if they so request and desire as the eunuch did, but if they do not make water then that will not eliminate the work that Christ did for the believer.
God hasn't nor will He allow such a thing.
BTW, Romans 6:7 does not give the effect of water baptism on the believer
It sure does.
and water is not even specified in Romans 6:7 as the substance of baptism. So adding water is assumption and conjecture, plain and simple. If it is not taught there, why add it?
Because it is the only thing that parallels burial. (Col 2: 12)
Besides, what else could we be "immersed" into like the Ethiopian eunuch?
Ask yourself what is your gain in adding something to the text that does not exist there? What will be the outcome by doing that?
Perhaps your salvation.
The word "water" isn't necessary here, as all previous "baptisms" were in water.
It is written..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)
Taken together with..."And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" (Luke 3:3)
John baptized with water...or are you going to argue otherwise here too?
The only difference between John's baptism and the baptism I experienced was that my baptism was in the name of Jesus Christ.
Because my repentance from sin was true, God gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost...His doing not mine.
Though you won't say it, I know you are trying to use that baptism to usurp water baptism.
That is a mistake.
One is of our volition, and the other is God's doing.

Sorry for the double post, but after editing, the second post didn't erase the first post.
Last edited by Hill Top on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Hill Top
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Re: The failure of holding fast.

Post by Hill Top » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:22 pm

Hill Top wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:18 pm
luchnia wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:38 am
Thank you for making the point of what we have been claiming all along! You are correct, God would not allow a believing man to perish because a believer is FREE from sin and alive to Christ.
You forgot something...Jesus said..."He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;..." (Mark 16:16)
Consider what you have stated about even 2 minutes to get to water and ponder that for a while. Even if the believer did NOT get to water for whatever reason (because some do not make it to water), he is free in Christ because the believer is baptized into Christ, death burial and resurrection!
He is't "baptized into Christ" without baptism.
This does not mean that any man should be forbid water. None should be forbid water if they so request and desire as the eunuch did, but if they do not make water then that will not eliminate the work that Christ did for the believer.
God hasn't nor will He allow such a thing.
BTW, Romans 6:7 does not give the effect of water baptism on the believer
It sure does.
and water is not even specified in Romans 6:7 as the substance of baptism. So adding water is assumption and conjecture, plain and simple. If it is not taught there, why add it?
Because it is the only thing that parallels burial. (Col 2: 12)
Besides, what else could we, or the Ethiopian eunuch, be "immersed" into ?
Ask yourself what is your gain in adding something to the text that does not exist there? What will be the outcome by doing that?
Perhaps your salvation.
The word "water" isn't necessary here, as all previous "baptisms" were in water.
It is written..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)
Taken together with..."And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" (Luke 3:3)
John baptized with water...or are you going to argue otherwise here too?
The only difference between John's baptism and the baptism I experienced was that my baptism was in the name of Jesus Christ.
Because my repentance from sin was true, God gave me the gift of the Holy Ghost...His doing not mine.
Though you won't say it, I feel you are trying to use that baptism to usurp water baptism.
That is a mistake.
One is of our volition, and the other is God's doing.



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